Monday, December 7th, 2009
Has the GTA franchise Peaked?

Grand Theft Auto IV - General News | @ 08:27 PM MDT | By Ash_735
Grand Theft Auto IV was one of the fastest selling games of all time during it's launch, a feat only recently topped by Modern Warfare 2, but in regards to the sales of the handheld game Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars and the sales of the Episodes from Liberty City disc at retail, analyst Ben Schachter wonders if the GTA franchise has peaked:
...we must raise an even bigger question: has the Grand Theft Auto franchise peaked? Given the strength of GTA IV in 2008, the question may seem misplaced, but our concern is that the very highly rated new GTA content for Xbox as well as PSP and DS did not perform up to expectations in 2009. Now, we very clearly understand that these do not represent 'true' new GTA titles. However, the fact is that these were compelling titles, attractively priced, and reasonably well-promoted, yet they fell relatively flat

He continued by saying:
We do not mean to pour salt on an open wound, but this does raise questions about the strength of TTWO’s crown jewel. It is an issue we will monitor closely (we also note that we expect increased competition in the open-world action genre in 2010 and beyond)

With comments on other gaming websites where the majority seem to agree with this statement, What do you guys think? Has GTA as a franchise Peaked? Were you disappointed by Grand Theft Auto IV? and What direction would you like GTA as a franchise to go in?
Viewer Comments
I'm shot in the head!

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,674
I think GTA has only "peaked" until the next big title comes out. I wasn't very excited for GTAIV's DLC or for the new handheld releases, but I'd definitely be excited for a brand new GTA set in a brand new city. Even if it happened to be set in Vice City with GTAIV's engine, I'd still find myself highly anticipating the next major release.
12-07-2009 08:46 PM
Resident Bitch

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 506
Maybe they should release the DLC episodes for PC. Then they'd see a boost in sales.
12-07-2009 09:27 PM
Registered User

Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 4
I knew this would spark Rockstars attention eventually.

I said it before GTA: Chinatown Wars was ported to PSP. 'There's no need' as if they thought it would boost sales from the lack of DS sales, obviously they were wrong.

Personally I don't know why TTWO wasted their time on porting Chinatown wars, when if you open your eyes, there is enough of a demand for GTA San Andreas Stories.

GTA Series has not 'peaked'. In the worst case scenario, it's at a stand still because us gamers aren't feeling the 'oomph' anymore that Rockstar used to bring. It feels like they are gliding through instead of giving it the hard push they used too.

On the whole, we don't want Episodic content, and we don't want shitty top down GTA's anymore. We want new experiences. There are some franchises that can go 3D then back to 2D and still have the support from their fanbase. I don't think this is one of them hehe. Street fighter maybe, GTA no...

Close this book and open a new one Rockstar. we want to see GTA San Andreas Stories for the PSP a new GTA for Consoles and hell.. Cut the EXCLUSIVE bullshit to MS. NO ONE should be kissing their ass, want to see an increase in sales? bring the Episodic content to PS3. stop leaving people out in the dark and expect to carry the torch as the best publisher, Someone else is going to be tooting your horn.
12-07-2009 09:40 PM
GTA addict since 2001

Registered: Nov 2004
Posts: 329
I don't think it's peaked either. Here on the forums you see a high demand for new stuff in an ALL NEW GTA title.

They need to bring back what people want to play. A lot of the hardcore GTA fans liked 4, but your casual gamer didn't get the same feeling out of this title as the previous ones. It was bland in comparison.

Hopefully TBOGT is a sign that they are willing to give what people want in the future.

Peaked? No, just slow because of what's out right now.
12-07-2009 10:27 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 8
I think Rockstar has plenty of tricks up their sleeves. This series isn't going to taper off so easily.
12-07-2009 11:12 PM
Registered User

Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
GTA series peaked? Hell no!

The problem is that GTA IV was a step forward and a step back, it should have had all the things that made GTA SA so great and plus more!

Rockstar needs to understand that they need to go back to the way GTA was, when it was very fun and highly addicting. GTA IV is addicting to me, but not as much as GTA SA was.

So what they need to do is to make another GTA like SA, but with a new story line characters and so on, just bring the real fun back!
12-07-2009 11:51 PM
If you can't wear a spandex jumpsuit...

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 337
I agree with genosyde 100%. Also, if they did some of the crazy stuff they did in TBoGT in a revamped Vice City or San Andreas, that'd be getting closer to the peak.
12-08-2009 01:19 AM
Registered User

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 4
GTA peaks in cycles: GTA1 in the topdown era, GTAVC for the Renderware engine era, and this is the first of the RAGE era, not everything could be put in otherwise you'd have a bunch of useless crap that you may or may not get to do. People will disagree with my statement on GTA VC and say SA was better was bloated. The story was great, but the "customize your car" "build muscle" "always have to eat to stay alive" "get a tattoo" "change clothes" etc. All really unwarranted, unneeded and just made for way too much.

Depending on how far they go with the RAGE engine, and if Rockstar pay attention to what people actually want in a Grand Theft Auto game, i'd imagine we haven't even seen the start yet, let alone the peak.
12-08-2009 01:22 AM
Registered User

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 60
No way. This is just an analyst who wants to stir things up on the GTA scene - the perfect timing IMO.

IV has been a step-forward, but not the highest Rockstar can achieve. Rockstar is always raising the bar with open-world gameplay, and this is a trend I expect to continue indefinitely.
12-08-2009 04:41 AM
Registered User

Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 1
when r$ give up PC market, it clearly show there is a red light. Since using kb, mouse to play is a better control than gamepad(my 10 cents)
12-08-2009 06:37 AM
Registered User

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 0
rockstar are idiots, they should sell china town wars and episodes of librety city for pc and ps 3 ..etc . what do you expect when you sell it for xbox -.- you lose 2/3 of ur fans
12-08-2009 07:11 AM

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 220
I think Rockstar will keep it fresh if they remake GTAIII gta:VC and GTA:SA once for each generation of console. as for DLC you can never have enough DLC. The Ballad Of Gay Tony was amazing and its what GTAIV should have been when it came out.
12-08-2009 08:07 AM
Striking back

Registered: Dec 2009
Posts: 0
In my opinion, Grand Theft Auto is a franchise in which, no matter how many times the public think it is close to peaking, they always manage to bring us something fresh and new. As TrIp13G said "I think Rockstar has plenty of tricks up their sleeves. This series isn't going to taper off so easily", and quite right. But, on the other hand, I would like to see mabye a Vice City, or possible new map. They did wow us with a lot of features in GTA IV, but they went back to basics (insane weapons, fast cars, crazier missions - from what I played), which is what makes GTA.

What I, as a proud Grand Theft Auto fan since 1999, hope for is: Rockstar to see that they did right with TBoGT (more so than IV or TLAD), and then make sure they include the fast cars, insane weapons, memorable characters, crazier missions and more multiplayer back into the mixture.
12-08-2009 11:13 AM
Registered User

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 4
Agreed, Cashy.

If the next GTA doesn't include most, if not all that TBoGT had, then it'll definately be a step backwards and IV will have been this eras peak.

owned_by_gta also had a point: LC, VC, SA for every generation of consoles would keep it interesting, as long as the stories changed, or maybe cameos from non-dead GTAIII era characters came about. (Imagine Niko doing jobs for Claude? or Ken Rosenberg? Tommy Vercetti? CJ?) That'd be a fresh twist: take prior protagonists and turn them into the ones hiring you, somewhat full circle to an extent.
12-08-2009 06:51 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2009
Posts: 0
I mean who knows if it peaked I mean we are not sure if people where so stoked about the dlc. Plus it was late october when it came out modern warfare2 was about to come out. People where not really paying attention to gta iv content. The way i like to look at the dlc is like gta lcs and vcs nobody were to stoked about those two because the ps3 was about to come out when those came out. Also they where in the same places as previous games so obviously people got bored of the old liberty city, and possibly the old vice city (because we dont know if gta V is going to vice city).
12-08-2009 07:45 PM
"Your stupidity may be your one saving grace."

Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,392
I absolutely guarantee that if they make the next one in a modern Vice City and dumb down the realism or even allow cheats to increase the fun factor, there's no way this franchise has seen the end yet. TBoGT was more along the lines of what GTA is supposed to be, so I hope they focus on that and use the forums as blueprint for the next release.
12-09-2009 02:26 PM
Brucie baby

Registered: Feb 2007
Posts: 197
The exclusive DLC is a whole load of crap, they could've (theoretically) increased their sales substancially if they released the DLC for PS3.

I for one didn't buy the DLC becuase i don't have a xbox 360, and have no intention of buying one for 2 DLC packs.
12-09-2009 05:06 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
First its important to note that the DLC content was not necessary at all, quite honestly Luis and Johnny were lame duck characters compared to Niko. Niko was and is astronomically more dynamic than Johnny and Luis but Rockstar unfortunately decided to include them into the overall story at the beginning of development, developers were being forced to give Microsoft bang for their buck. You have to understand if these two characters were as important as Niko they could have easily included them into the original game and let the players select which character they would like to play as. The DLC could have been reserved to fulfill the reasonable and creative demands of the fans, you know, to add garages, weapons, vehicles, media, interiors, multiplayer clothing, side missions, and additional storyline if need be.

I have a strange feeling that by Rockstar or Take Two accepting exclusivity money from Microsoft that it put a creative burden on the developers, forcing them to prioritize their creative efforts on the DLC to fulfill the wishes of Microsoft, who knows what the DLC could have been if Microsofts offer didn't interfere with development.

Is the GTA series at its peak, yes and no. Yes because of what has transpired, a beautifully created game stifled by corporate maximum profit demands. And no due to the fact that we have not witnessed the GTA Max, remember, at the end of the day they took stuff out of the game that were native to the series and they didn't have enough leverage to make GTA IV as robust and sound as it could have been.

I truly hope the next GTA is done correctly right out of the gate, no more exclusivity, and equal substance between all platforms in terms of content, quality, and story for those who love cinematic storytelling that the GTA series is known for.
12-09-2009 06:48 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
Also, I want to thank everyone for turning me off to the idea of the next GTA being in Vice City, I was open to it at first but now I'm truly sick of the cocaine fueled 80's that everyone loves soooo much. Its better to be progressive people, trust me on this.

XBOXGamertag - NOFATE86
12-09-2009 06:50 PM
Registered User

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 4
Spot on NoFate, the exclusivity was ridiculous (i own an X360, i waited until the PC release before picking it up.) and may have hampered the development or it may not. The DLC content new stories, same place intertwining seems more like a fresh take on GTA as one of those "you see the characters, you work with them, but who ARE they?". Luis granted, in the scheme of things, is fairly useless. You see him twice. Johnny i can understand because you work with him multiple times.

And regards to Vice City: a modern day vice would be more interesting with an aging tommy vercetti or something along those lines, but if its back in the 80s, it can go into the cheap pile
12-10-2009 01:16 AM

Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 125
Personally, I'd love to see one of two things happen for the next GTA:

1. Either a whole new city, storyline, cast of characters (maybe with some other ties/cameos), and all the other makings for a whole new addition in the series, but with nothing taken away from IV, and most of San Andreas' features that were taken out put back in on top of it.


2. A complete remake of either Vice City, or San Andreas, with the GTA IV engine, and all of the features from those games that were taken out resurging. But while the scope of San Andreas could pretty much remain the same (since it's pretty big anyway as is), they could add more land to Vice City so it equaled up to the size of IV's Liberty, or SA (or another island or something at least). And if not a remake, a spin-off of Vice or SA in the 90s or '00s, or a prequel in the 50s - 70s anywhere would be cool, too. The '80s were great for VC, and okay for VCS, but not again.

Taking this route, it's more than likely to hit it's peak, I believe.
12-10-2009 08:05 AM
Registered User

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 4
50s-70s they've already done (London 1961/69), 80s they did and shouldn't resort to, they should just keep it modern, they've done nearly every era from 1961-2009, just keep it modern, ditch the bodyshape, car customization and tattoo aspects from SA, incorporate the rest of the interesting features for it and bam, you've got a decent game.
12-10-2009 08:09 AM
late on the feels

Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 921
For the 'if the DLC wasn't exclusive' thing, if it wasn't exclusive, then I doubt there'd be DLC on the level that they created. Also, did anyone ever stop to think why the gameplay were on different levels on each episode, and the whole game?

I'd say from a logical sense that they were testing the balances of realism in the game. I'm 90% sure that the balance of realism will give the realism lovers a hard-on, and the fun lovers one, too. And this would only be achieved by throwing out a trial run of what they think works before they release a full-blown game.
12-10-2009 12:46 PM
(V) (;,,;) (V)

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,402
In ever pay attention to these so-called "analysts"

Also I've never heard of this, Ben Schachter.
12-10-2009 01:24 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
The caliber of the DLC was already set do to the standards and measures already put in place pre-development by the studio, in other words they had already knew where they were going with the game as a whole, DLC included. No studio who have put in the time that they have put in on base game development would outperform just to fulfill a contractual obligation no matter if it is Microsoft at the helm. You stay within your range as a developer and finish the job, that's why the DLC was finished last as opposed to the base game. They could have prioritized development teams to handle the workload for DLC and the base game at the same time but they didn't, GTA IV was completed first then came the second priority. Now you can say that it was only logical to do the base game first, the DLC derives from the base game model, but you have to factor in workload. These developers are not machines, their not even human in a sense, their artists and once you have reached a certain milestone in development of anything, everything after wards truly becomes a job, just completing a contract. In a sense I agree with my PS3 brethren, the DLC should not be exclusive to XBOX360 because it truly wasn't worth buying a 360 just to play it.

[ post edited 12-10-2009 05:18 PM by NoFate ]
12-10-2009 05:17 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
I agree with the studio testing the game, seeing how far they could push it, but this was achieved through the base game, during development and after release, the DLC was contractual and in the case of TBOGT, finishing GTA IV off with bang. They do not leave things to chance when it comes to AAA titles. They know the full scope of what the game can do. Things could be hit or miss and companies don't like to miss so development had to be careful not to take unnecessary risks and saying "we still don't know what this game is capable of yet, but we'll see" to the head honchos is dangerous for everyone involved. They only risk they were willing to take was multiplayer and as you see upgrades and patches were released to alleviate those problems. What they did do though was prove to investors and CEO's that the series still had life. During those meetings, before, during, and after development, they talked about overall profit, development, public demand, but they also mentioned the DLC in the context of it being merged into the base game of the next GTA title, so they could give them a idea of where they want to go next. We have to remember that despite how great this game was it is the first GTA on next gen consoles, the whole game was a test to see even if GTA had a future at all.
12-10-2009 05:19 PM
Registered User

Registered: Aug 2009
Posts: 1
The GTA series could easily lose it's steam if Rockstar North doesn't pull something to light a spark under everyones ass.

We are at a point where the fan base is divided between loving the down to earth aspects of GTAIV, and the over the top aspects of San Andreas. Like it or not, there is a large percentage of people who feel GTA is about stealing fighter jets, jetpacks and parachutes and not about general crime.

Personally, I feel Rockstar needs to cater to both crowds with GTAV or whatever the next "main" game will be called. You don't have to have every gameplay aspect involved in the storyline, which means they shouldn't limit themselves if they want to do another down to earth storyline. This is the only thing I believe Saints Row 2 got right. I feel the story was pretty stupid and ridiculous, but at least they didn't try to involve flying planes, parachuting, shooting feces on people and all the other ridiculous crap they had into the storyline.

All that aside though, the episodes were never meant to be Vice City or San Andreas type games. More like Liberty City Stories or Vice City Stories. These analysts should realize that by this point.
12-11-2009 10:18 AM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
Every game has the potential of losing its steam, tha's just the way the industry works, once the demand wears thin the product is no longer considered desireable. Rockstar has two fan bases, dedicated gamers and non-dedicated gamers, those who play for the experience and those who play for the thrill. Now they could foolishly cater more towards those non-dedicated gamers who simply play the game to kill hookers and fly helicopters but they will lose the dedicated fan base which is where they make most of their profit. Rockstar, creatively, should stay in their lane of making games their passionate about instead of catering to those who only play the game to get their rocks off, leave that lane to the people at Volition, they fulfill that need pretty well.

The fan base is divided, this is true, but who should dictate the demand? As of right now the thrill seekers are more outspoken but suggest less quality and more quantity, the experience seekers are less outspoken but suggest more quality and more variety, more attention to quantity vs. more attention to quality. Now it will not be possible to satisfy both fan bases so the final decision of project priority will depend on the developers and currently they are leaning more towards realism than unrealism.
12-11-2009 06:13 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
GTAIV didn't include random ridiculous activities into the game mainly due to the fact that being over top just for the sake of being over the top is kind of jerkish. Its like walking down the street in the rain with a beach umbrella instead of regular umbrella, its insulting to their true fanbase and they know this. Like I've said they know their lane and they should stay in it. I know I might recieve some flak for saying this by many of you undercover Saints Row fans but it must be said, despite all the complaining put on by the GTA fans, GTA IV was way better than Saints Row 1 and 2. I'm sorry, the ridiculousness of the entire game had that San Andreas nostalgia at first but after I beat both games the first time I quickly went back to playing GTA IV exclusively. From top to bottom GTA IV is way ahead of Saints Row and its a shame that some people would rather have the Third Street Saints over the Grove Street Families.

Frustration aside, I agree, these analysts should lose their jobs, how can you be an analyst if your not looking at these things from the ground floor? Everyone in here, who have some sense, could potentially be part of some official creative panel or analyst team at Rockstar, seriously. I respect all of you and to those analysts bad mouthing hardcore games there's no way in hell GTA is at its peak, you can say that about your beloved Wii but thats a retarded assumption about GTA, Rockstar forever.

[ post edited 12-11-2009 06:18 PM by NoFate ]
12-11-2009 06:17 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2009
Posts: 0
Great discussion guys. I too think that GTA is VERY far from it's peak. GTA IV was the first game on a new system so I can understand why R* added while taking away. As for the exclusivity of DLC, I think it's a mistake R* wont make again. The LCS, VCS, LAD, CTW, and offshoots of such aren't very lucrative nor as deep as a full featured game like GTA IV, but they serve their purpose perfectly. That purpose is to give players the GTA experience form different perspectives while they wait patiently for the next feature length title (GTA V) and I thank R* for caring enough about us fans to break us off with those titles and them being worth playing.

As far as the next GTA, I always wanted R* to create a GTA where you shape your player's life and story-line. Hell, even create him. I thought the car modding, tattos, and clothing were awesome in GTA SA and was SO disappointed that GTA IV barely featured or didn't have those things. I think the beauty of GTA:SA was CJ being an extension of your own personal style. The style should be realistic and tasteful, but if R* created in game brands and different quality levels for cars, clothing, and housing, it would seem more personal AND realistic. Also, GTA IV's Liberty City really didn't have a culture. It felt empty. There was no true neighborhood differences besides name and architecture. You didn't see mad homies hanging outside a bodega smoking Blacks and blasting hip hop in South Bohan and you didn't see a let out to a concert in Mid-Town Algonquin. Those little touches will make experiencing the city so much deeper.
12-12-2009 02:48 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
You know I understand the demand of the fans to have everything and then some in GTA IV but you have to come to grips with the truth, there was not enough time, space, and/or project flexibility to do everything and then some. Despite what I consider to be minor disadvantages within the game, GTA IV was and still is a great success and like everyone else I do hope they add more realistic customization options. Personally I'm really not looking for complete customization of the main character, like Saints Row, mainly you should have a RPG like control over the main character, be able to alter certain attributes to fit your playing style within the world. For example, if your more inclined to stealth the training you partake in should alter your attributes and body accordingly so throughout and by the end of the game specific class activities and side missions are available to you. Furthermore if you have persisted with this goal throughout the game you should have to compete online and offline for top dog status within your chosen class. See one of the main problems of the game is replay ability within missions and activities because they have become the highlight, contrary to the past when the game was mostly content and you created most of the dynamic action, with this class system you can satisfy both fan bases with realistic dynamic gameplay. Now as for further personalization just the variety of wardrobe, weapons, cosmetics, vehicular modification, real estate options, and safe houses could satisfy those with the craving to be creating.
12-12-2009 06:19 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
Rockstar has touched on quite a few things with the entire GTA IV product, if you pay close attention to the game it was heading in this direction already, many of the assets within the game weren't just created randomly, these assets are going to be used and expanded upon in GTA V. It wouldn't make much sense to create all the different clothing brands and not have any plans on using them in the future and the only reason they weren't used in GTA IV was due to time constraints and the juggling of development priorities. In the future title expect to see most of what both fan bases wished for fulfilled and those of us who adore realism will be pleasantly surprised.
12-12-2009 06:19 PM
Custom User Title

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 250
I certainly hope all this speculation and conjecture is accurate. Attracting new fans and evolving the series in noticebly different and fun ways that ensure replayability are what will mostly determine the "peaking" premise. It ultimately comes down to sales. Can Rockstar produce a GTA title that can give established fans something new and enjoyable? In addition, can they produce a title that will attract new fans? That is yet to be seen.
12-12-2009 08:33 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2008
Posts: 4
The question is can Rockstar attract new fans while keeping their established sales base? If they stay on the current track they will. Its no doubt what Rockstar is capable of in terms of producing AAA GTA titles, they've given something new in every GTA title. Sales are ultimately a byproduct of quality and innovation and they have both been a staple, so its very likely they will once again produce a title that will wow us, consider the next GTA to be pure expansion.
12-12-2009 10:29 PM
Ex-Dead Mod

Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,086
It's kind of dumb to think that the series has peaked because downloadable content and a small handheld game didn't sell as well as a massive title like GTAIV. No, the series hasn't peaked.
12-13-2009 02:29 AM
Custom User Title

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 250
I wouldn't say that fans will always buy a product because of name alone. The attraction of the GTA III trilogy was the replayability and general sense of fun you got from playing. While IV is more realistic, it is generally regarded as not as fun to play. I am in R*s corner but the overall letdown most fans felt should be considered. DLCs and handhelds should also be a barometer of a series' strength. There was no question of the series when LCS and VCS were released because they sold well. Obviuosly I like this game and the spinoffs. I am just very skeptical that R* can make a new GTA that can generate the excitement and fun that the III trilogy did
12-13-2009 08:44 AM
Amateur Intellectual

Registered: May 2006
Posts: 5,225
It hasn't peaked because:
-GTA Chinatown was not your usual GTA game.
-The Episodic content was 360 only. That's half of the fanbase. It's not gonna sell well if it's not on PS3 either. I don't know the exact numbers of sales, but I bet they were more than acceptable for a 360 exclusive. If the DLC came to PS3, Rockstar probably would've made more than the $50mil MS gave them.

[ post edited 12-13-2009 02:30 PM by 5tatic ]
12-13-2009 02:27 PM
Registered User

Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 0
It hasn't peaked yet because:
-It exclusive to the 360. Go back to what works. GTA started out on the PC. Put the expansion packs out on PC and on the PS3. Also for the next game, make in a city/ area that hasn't been in any other GTA before it.
12-13-2009 06:48 PM
Registered User

Registered: Dec 2009
Posts: 0
yea i too would like 2 see updated vers of sanandreas and vice city and maybe a different country and i dont believe gta has died its takin a vacation lol hell i still play the oldies its just nice to relax and play the gta's of old sometimes
12-18-2009 08:08 AM

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