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Old 06-10-2008   #46
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I don't disagree with any criticism, just the ones who base their overall view of GTA as San Andreas, or complain about the soundtrack, but they usually mention the San Andreas soundtrack too.

edit: my main point? SAN ANDREAS DOES NOT EQUAL GTA.
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Old 06-10-2008   #47
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Originally Posted by the_sextein View Post
GTA SA had basically taken the same game engine with the same character models and cars for the 3rd time in a row. It's not hard to make 20 cars and make 50 outfits for the PS2 and then spend time adding in things like BMX bikes and what not because everything else was already done the first two times they released it. In GTA 4 they had to make all of the cars and characters and everything inlcuding the engine itself from scratch. Also consideer that most of these options and deep creative side activities from past GTA's were actually pretty hollow and many of them were not even worth doing. Why have 100 outfits when most of them look stupid and people are only going to use 4 of them the entire game?
That's just it though. In SA, you had options. Some people like to dress their characters as cowboys running around in diapers, and while I don't - I go for the most stylized gangster look - at least there's a CHOICE. Since this is a free roam game, a sandbox, we deserve to be given the choice, not stripped away.

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Why have 10 differant vehicle missions that are all the same thing? Go from one point on the map to another in a certain time limit. Pimping, Parametic, Taxi, fire fighter, it's all the same thing. Whats the point in working out? Is their some kind of challenge to working out? Nope it was just another option to give the game a feeling of variety where there was none. Flying a jet pack out of area 53? sounds retarded and very unlike GTA to me. All in all I think GTA 4 refined the gameplay for everything that worked and cut out the stuff that was repetative or rotten while adding in new things that actually enhance the way the game interacts with the player like the cell phone for example. What GTA 4 does it does really well and to be honest alot of the things that have been cut out were totally pointless in a gameplay sense to begin with. GTA 3 and GTA 4 have alot in commen when it comes to break through technology and new controls mixed with the same gameplay variety.
Actually, a lot of the R3 missions are the hardest missions in the past games. And you are thinking too narrow minded here. If you've played the first Saints Row you know that they greatly expanded upon GTA's formula by putting in some of the most absurb and absolutely fun side missions which are more than reaching a destination in a time limit. You had Insurance Fraud missions, where you damage yourself on purpose to get money and pretend to be injured. You could go to a loan shark and borrow money; they gave you specific amount of days to pay them back, and if you didn't they would send people to kill you so you have to kill some hitmen every once in a while. There's drug pushing missions where you escort someone selling drugs, you have to protect them from the cops and other obstacles, and if you fail you lose. There's an activity called escort missions where you drive an Escort girl (aka high class hooker) around the city getting customers to fuck in her car, the news want in on this, so they follow you to take pics. In order to beat the levels in this mission, you have to bring the enjoyment bar up to full, which is done by staying as far away from the news vans as possible. There's also a footage bar, which shows how much footage the news has taken, and if that bar gets full you lose the mission. So basically, you have examine the roads, and be constantly on the move during this mission; it can be highly addicting and strategic. And this post doesn't even scratch the surface of the amount of things you can do in Saint's Row; you can do pimping missions where you kill an abusive pimp and save his hos from him and bring them to a brothel, those can be tricky since pimps pack some heat.

Furthermore, it's not like R3 missions are the only side missions in GTA. There's also robbing houses, buying apartments among other things absent in IV.

So basically, what I am saying is that instead of going back to the drawing board and reintroducing NEW things for us to do ON TOP of not including old things for us to do, Rockstar cheaped out and gave us one of the most barren, absolutely boring 3d sandbox game worlds in recent memory. All of the competition have done better to evolve the genre recently in terms of gameplay: Dead Rising, Assassin's Creed, Crackdown, Saints Row. And guess which game series opted to remove content as opposed to adding it or even evolving it? The leader. Rockstar deserves this backlash.

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I never expected GTA 4 to have more cars and odd ball side missions because it is the first game to be done on this engine. But I have noticed that an intentional effort was put into making the game seem a little more realistic as a whole. Realism isn't everyone's bag so it's not going to please everyone. Like the Taxi and police missions were handled in a more down to earth mannor. I think the dating aspect as lame as it may sound was actually pretty cool and something I wouldn't lable as GTAish either. In the end I think they are on to something with the whole character interaction thing. It was done well but it could be improved much more.
I always love this excuse. It's the first game to utilize this engine and yet there's how many hours of television? How many hows of cabaret? How many hours of comedy clubs? How much time did they spend creating the internet? And you have the audacity to blame lack of content on the technology? GTAIII came out on new tech when it came out and guess what? It got the job done. To me, it is the unrivaled sandbox game. It just seems to me that in IV Rockstar thought they could get away with not putting content in the game because they can obviously sell it via dlc later, and put emphasis on extraneous factors which have no real bearings to the gameplay such as the things listed above or things most people HATE like the relatioionships which was by far the most complained about feature in SA.

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GTA 4 is a great game and the physics, lighting, bump mapping, ect... are all technical features that allow the game to be more immersive and tense. I would agree that the missions feel dry sometimes but I have felt that way since Vice City was realeased. I felt that the majority of the missions in SA just felt off or shallow. Some of them were multifaceted but they never clicked with me. GTA 4 isn't much differant when it comes to the missions but the realism of the game engine has added a bit more of a movie like feel to the missions that has helped me enjoy them more and the new controls have added a little more debth and challenge to the missions overall.
I agree that it is an impressive feat. And I agree that San Andreas' many missions felt shallow as well, there's a reason I prefer III and VC, but at least it had variety.

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Saint' s row 2 is comming to the PC and I think I will pick it up when it comes out. Considering this will be the second game using that engine I expect a bit more variety but I doubt it will have the polish that GTA 4 had. Also as was mentioned earlier, most of the crazy stuff you can do in Saints row is just another play on things that GTA has done in the past. I don't consider Saints Row to be a break through title but it is still cool and worth playing and considering they have had their game engine out longer than Rockstar it gives them a distinct advantage for adding new features. Hopefully it won't dissapoint. Overall I don't feel that GTA 4 was a dissapointment. I didn't like the ending but it was done well and was worth the price of admission.
I really hope the next GTA adds content and evolves upon established things rather than taking things away, for my sake.

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Himuro, in terms of your charge of “hand holding” and lack of freedom of GTA 4, I completely agree, but I feel like that change happened back in Vice City. That’s one really cool thing about GTA III is that there are multiple ways to do missions and most missions have a non-cheat way to cheat the mission like blowing up the enemies getaway car. Maybe San Andreas and GTA 4 have the most scripted missions though. You wonder if on some level Rockstar wishes they were making movies. I always find it annoying when the controls are pulled away for some long, drawn out “cinematic” scene.
I disagree. Vice City had the most open ended missions to me. The mission at the golf course is a classic example. There's 4 ways to complete that mission minimum right off my head.

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In terms of the realism VS mayhem, I think it’s hard to say. San Andreas was a very different beast than the rest. If you compare GTA 4 with GTA 3 or Vice City, is it really that limited? Personally, I found the ambulance missions to be the thing I dreaded most in getting 100%, I was glad to see that and the fire trucks gone. Himuro again made a good point though; it was nice in the previous titles to get some reward for completing side-missions. You felt like you were building towards 100%.
Ambulance and firetruck missions would be a BITCH. I'm kind of glad they're gone, but hey, they're better than nothing and I loved being fireproof in VC.

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I disagree that the visuals are nothing but fluff though. I mean, it IS a video game. Graphics count for a lot. And it’s more than eye-candy; it’s the way Rockstar creates a fully immersive world. GTA 4 has pushed that further than any of the other titles. The sound design of the pedestrians and ambient noises are a HUGE leap forward (playing the game in surround sound, hearing someone sneak up on you, is unreal). The humor and satire of American culture in the game is as razor-sharp as ever. So often overlooked, I think GTA is on par with The Simpsons (albeit from a VERY different angle) in terms of observations of American culture. Lazlo and Dan H are geniuses. Finally, I won’t even get into the Euphoria engine stuff, but has anyone else been totally blown away with the dynamic changes in light and shadow?
I love the new things added to the graphics, but graphics don't mean a thing to me if the gameplay isn't up to par.

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I like the way the above poster says I'm in denial because I like the game! This forum is great, apparently if you like GTA IV then you're a fucking idiot. Just for the record, if you use the Taxi's too much, your problem, I always drive between safe houses after missions. Relationships, I agree, they are annoying, I get them to 100% and never go out with them again, just do the damn trick, agree to meet them and cancel, you lose nothing.
You mean like how you feel someone who isn't entirely feeling the game absolutely hates the game and thinks it's crap? Your attitude is just as bad.

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I don't disagree with any criticism, just the ones who base their overall view of GTA as San Andreas, or complain about the soundtrack, but they usually mention the San Andreas soundtrack too.

edit: my main point? SAN ANDREAS DOES NOT EQUAL GTA.
I have brought III and VC into this more so than SA because I prefer those over SA.

Last edited by Himuro; 06-10-2008 at 01:48 AM..
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Old 06-10-2008   #48
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Nice work Brotha. Great vid.
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Old 06-10-2008   #49
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That was an awesome video, Brotha! Thanks for sharing, I put it on the homepage
Thanks Rappo
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Old 06-10-2008   #50
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The games used to emphasize exploration and freedom more so than relationships. This is entirely absent in IV since the missions are mostly scripted, lacking in variety and creativity. There is nothing creative like Expresso 2 Go or Sayonara Salvatore in GTAIV.
What about 'Blood Brothers'? In many ways, it was better than 'Sayonara Salvatore'. 'Blood Brothers' gave you the "CHOICE" that you are after.

I don't understand the people who don't like the taxi feature; they complain about how it removes from the driving experience in the game. The answer to this is simple: do NOT use the feature.
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Old 06-10-2008   #51
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Himuro, I don't know you so I can't say for sure but I think GTA has simply taken a direction that you can't appreciate. It's like bashing a painting from your favorite artist because he decided to use differant materials on his last painting. Most of the missions you mention from saints row fit the feel of the game but they wouldn't fit in GTA 4. Rockstar tried to make a GTA world that didn't have so many over the top odd activities in it. Some of the missions are down right extream but it's more centered around a style rather than pushing as many mini challenges into the game regardless of how it changes the vibe of the overall product.

Watching a TV show or going to a comedy club are things that are totally normal. Having a relationship and being surrounded by the norm punctuates the extream nature of the violence that Niko commits to when working for a contact. The act of violence seems out of place in a society and that is why it catches so much attention in newspapers. All other Sandbox games make violence seem compleatly normal to the point where it has no sytle other than fast action. GTA did something differant and it sacrificed some things in order to achieve it. It is a unique style and it was done very well in my opinion but it's true that GTA4 is not the most expansive game with the most gameplay styles. It has alot to do and most of it is integrated into the game in a way that side missions don't even feel like extra content anymore. It's really well done but not everyone will like it. Some will like it but prefer a more unrealistic approach like every other sandbox game that came before GTA 4. In the end even the most expansive games are simply expanding what rockstar did. If it adds more gameplay then great but I don't mind playing 40 hours instead of 50 if the shorter game has more style and is more fun while I am playing what gameplay is available. If Rockstar wanted to add horseshoes and camera locations on top of the pigeons I would probably just get bored and stop playing anyway. Things like throwing yourself in front of traffic for insurance is funny as hell but it is just plain silly and wouldn't fit with the intended vibe of the game. It's balance between art and raw fun. Some of us are willing to accept more than others.

One thing though, outside of some mission differances and the realism I feel that GTA 3 and 4 are nearly the same game when it comes to content variety. The exception being that 4 has alot more detail, better graphics, and odd little things like the internet, TV, cell phone ect. The only differance I see is in the mission design. Sometimes the missions are better and sometimes worse but overall both games were the first on a next gen console. They each had their own controls that defined their distinct GTA game style and both took place in Libertycity with the same basic land layout. Both had the same variety in features. It's just that GTA 4 has more style due to technology being better. Thats my opinion anyway. GTA 4 is what I imagined the future of gaming to be when I was playing GTA 2 on the PC way back when. I can't say I'm dissapointed. Other games have copied GTA with less quality and as you say Saints row gets some points for expanding gameplay in some areas but it lacks the feel that Rockstar was going for. That doesn't mean GTA has to stay realistic forever but I like their latest offering and I think it makes the original Saints Row seem childish in comparison. Saints Row has more to do and a larger variety of gameplay but GTA 4 is more fun at what it does offer even if it doesn't offer as much.

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Old 06-10-2008   #52
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If you people want to buy a game with a pile of stupid crap to do... buy postal....

One thing however I wish they would of included in gta4 is the stadium races and dirt track races.
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Old 06-10-2008   #53
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Old 06-10-2008   #54
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Himuro, I don't know you so I can't say for sure but I think GTA has simply taken a direction that you can't appreciate. It's like bashing a painting from your favorite artist because he decided to use differant materials on his last painting. Most of the missions you mention from saints row fit the feel of the game but they wouldn't fit in GTA 4. Rockstar tried to make a GTA world that didn't have so many over the top odd activities in it. Some of the missions are down right extream but it's more centered around a style rather than pushing as many mini challenges into the game regardless of how it changes the vibe of the overall product.

Watching a TV show or going to a comedy club are things that are totally normal. Having a relationship and being surrounded by the norm punctuates the extream nature of the violence that Niko commits to when working for a contact. The act of violence seems out of place in a society and that is why it catches so much attention in newspapers. All other Sandbox games make violence seem compleatly normal to the point where it has no sytle other than fast action. GTA did something differant and it sacrificed some things in order to achieve it. It is a unique style and it was done very well in my opinion but it's true that GTA4 is not the most expansive game with the most gameplay styles. It has alot to do and most of it is integrated into the game in a way that side missions don't even feel like extra content anymore. It's really well done but not everyone will like it. Some will like it but prefer a more unrealistic approach like every other sandbox game that came before GTA 4. In the end even the most expansive games are simply expanding what rockstar did. If it adds more gameplay then great but I don't mind playing 40 hours instead of 50 if the shorter game has more style and is more fun while I am playing what gameplay is available. If Rockstar wanted to add horseshoes and camera locations on top of the pigeons I would probably just get bored and stop playing anyway. Things like throwing yourself in front of traffic for insurance is funny as hell but it is just plain silly and wouldn't fit with the intended vibe of the game. It's balance between art and raw fun. Some of us are willing to accept more than others.

One thing though, outside of some mission differances and the realism I feel that GTA 3 and 4 are nearly the same game when it comes to content variety. The exception being that 4 has alot more detail, better graphics, and odd little things like the internet, TV, cell phone ect. The only differance I see is in the mission design. Sometimes the missions are better and sometimes worse but overall both games were the first on a next gen console. They each had their own controls that defined their distinct GTA game style and both took place in Libertycity with the same basic land layout. Both had the same variety in features. It's just that GTA 4 has more style due to technology being better. Thats my opinion anyway. GTA 4 is what I imagined the future of gaming to be when I was playing GTA 2 on the PC way back when. I can't say I'm dissapointed. Other games have copied GTA with less quality and as you say Saints row gets some points for expanding gameplay in some areas but it lacks the feel that Rockstar was going for. That doesn't mean GTA has to stay realistic forever but I like their latest offering and I think it makes the original Saints Row seem childish in comparison. Saints Row has more to do and a larger variety of gameplay but GTA 4 is more fun at what it does offer even if it doesn't offer as much.
I guess I'm not a part of their target audience then? Well, that sucks since it's like one of my favorite series.
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Old 06-10-2008   #55
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I have brought III and VC into this more so than SA because I prefer those over SA.
play them then!! gotta be better than not enjoying another game and moaning about it.

you'll be happier, we won't need to hear about it.............. everyones a winner!!
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Old 06-10-2008   #56
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gta 4 is the first in the series on next-gen consoles. It's like when rockstar took a step from GTA 2 to GTA 3. A few things will be taken out yes, but that's because they need reasons to improve on the next game. Can you imagine if they put everything they could in this game, and then when it comes to the next GTA, everybody would be like 'uhhh we done this shit in gta4, what's different?'. They want to give you reasons to love the next few games.

Look at the GTA 3 series.

GTA 3 - the most basic form of GTA with not many features. Rockstar was getting used to the PS2.
GTA VC - Built on GTA 3 with extra loved additions like motorbikes, changing clothes and helicopters. There must also be other things but I haven't played GTA 3 for a long time.
GTA SA - They went out with a bang here, adding literally anything they could; the respect system, girlfriends, complicated clothing system, car modding, airplanes, and other small features.


Now, do you not think that we will receive the same type of system here? We had GTA 4 which looks to be the most basic in the series, with simple features like eating, and the system clothing system. Rockstar are getting used to XBOX360 and the PS3. We are going to get a better experience when the next game rolls around, I guarantee it.

And also, Rockstar seems to be taking a different approach with GTA which I don't mind. They probably wanted to do things differently here because we have so many clones on the market these days. Saints Row literally just copied SA and added different features. SR2 looks half assed with a few features which would get boring in a while. The same city? What is the fucking point? Anybody who played SR1 will probably get bored of the game within a few weeks after they play with all of the little features. They've pretty much explored the city in the previous game.
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Old 06-10-2008   #57
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You have all complained about left out features in GTA IV, but do you actually realize GTA IV has to fit on a DVD for the Xbox 360? This is the same disc that was used for GTA III, Vice City and San Andreas. Do you guys also realize that this game took 100 Million Dollars, 3 years, and a few thousand people to create? If you do want a game with as much depth as GTA IV and more features than San Andreas, they've got to need a hell lot more time! 5 years? 10 years? 15 years? What if people got bored?

Besides, I don't see why those missions that were used for 5 years had to be used again. It gets boring. Sandbox games don't TELL you what to do to be fun, you use your GODDMAMN imagination and creativity. This, mixed with the RAGE engine and Euphoria, makes it fun and gives it a unique moment everytime you do something.

You know what? People hate change, but this is a change for the better. Accept it, and move on. Stop being stuck to the past just like Niko Bellic. You will suffer. And you sure aren't a GTA fan if you want Rockstar Games to make GTA games exactly identical to previous ones with just only gaphics and physics overhaul.

This isn't the EA Games tribe, people. This is the elite team of people who call themselves the GRAND THEFT AUTO FANS which are dedicated to the cause. Oh wait, I forgot you were under THQ/Violation's payroll. How much did they pay you to say crap about GTA IV? 50 Million Dollars? WAKE UP, kid.
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Old 06-10-2008   #58
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Cool video!
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Old 06-10-2008   #59
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GTA IV has to fit on a DVD for the Xbox 360?
They didn't fill up the DVD on the 360 version, you know. So your point is pretty moot.
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Old 06-10-2008   #60
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gta 4 is the first in the series on next-gen consoles. It's like when rockstar took a step from GTA 2 to GTA 3. A few things will be taken out yes, but that's because they need reasons to improve on the next game. Can you imagine if they put everything they could in this game, and then when it comes to the next GTA, everybody would be like 'uhhh we done this shit in gta4, what's different?'. They want to give you reasons to love the next few games.

Look at the GTA 3 series.

GTA 3 - the most basic form of GTA with not many features. Rockstar was getting used to the PS2.
GTA VC - Built on GTA 3 with extra loved additions like motorbikes, changing clothes and helicopters. There must also be other things but I haven't played GTA 3 for a long time.
GTA SA - They went out with a bang here, adding literally anything they could; the respect system, girlfriends, complicated clothing system, car modding, airplanes, and other small features.


Now, do you not think that we will receive the same type of system here? We had GTA 4 which looks to be the most basic in the series, with simple features like eating, and the system clothing system. Rockstar are getting used to XBOX360 and the PS3. We are going to get a better experience when the next game rolls around, I guarantee it.

And also, Rockstar seems to be taking a different approach with GTA which I don't mind. They probably wanted to do things differently here because we have so many clones on the market these days. Saints Row literally just copied SA and added different features. SR2 looks half assed with a few features which would get boring in a while. The same city? What is the fucking point? Anybody who played SR1 will probably get bored of the game within a few weeks after they play with all of the little features. They've pretty much explored the city in the previous game.
GTA3 was the first 3d GTA and it was a massive leap from GTA2 to GTA3 with a lot more content, so I don't even understand this. GTASA -> GTAIV is a complete step back though. Comparing IV to III is silly.
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