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Old 02-07-2014   #1
J.Orlando
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My problem with GTA V (spoilers here...)



Sorry -- I know that it might seem like overkill to put my entire comment in spoiler tags, but I would hate to read something like this and have a game ruined for me.

My biggest problem with GTA V has more to do with how its protagonists can kill so many people without getting caught. This is more important to me than the usual "oh, cars don't drive like this" or "how can a single human being carry a shop's worth of guns & ammo on his person?"

Those gripes are legitimate -- because they do deal with real-world issues, reality-based gaming, and reality period. But let's all take a step back and assume that the FiB and iAA are truly covering for Trevor, Franklin, and Michael.

In real life, some reporter or some PD somewhere would connect the dots. Almost nobody gets away with murdering upwards of 500 people and does not get caught. It hasn't happened, as far as well know, in modern history, at least -- since the printing press, newspapers, photography, and forensics have existed.

And for anyone who feels like being smart -- remember -- bin Laden, Milosevich, and Mubarak all got caught or killed. Hitler died. Goebbels died. The only dictator on the planet who may escape the jaws of justice is Kim Jong Un -- and even he might get sent to Pluto in a space-coffin.

So -- that's it. No biggie. Just complaining because, well, I'm bored and I feel as though I have nothing better to do than to complain. Which is partly why I put this in spoiler tags -- because let's face it -- everyone has something to say that is negative about GTA, at some point or other. Although, I'll also say this -- I do love this franchise, and this game is the best out of all of them so far -- yes, even with the sharpshooting trigger-happy police "officers" who are really just processor-based killbots hell-bent on preventing us from having any fun.



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Old 02-07-2014   #2
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Hasn't GTA always had that issue, though? How do you suggest they mix the joy of mindless killing in a video game with reality? Mission #2 would be your trial and #3 would be 20+ years in prison, and #4 would be your lethal injection execution.... not a very good video game
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Old 02-07-2014   #3
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You shouldn't take games so serious, it's a fun way to experience (to a certain degree) the thrill that goes along with doing stuff like that without having to face the consequences. Fun always precedes realism, sure it isn't realistic that you can carry a whole arsenal but it sure as hell makes things alot more fun and practical. It just would be too much of a hassle if you always want it to be realistic, it takes alot of the fun away too. What'd you imagine to happen after one of Trevor's rampages? He gets caught.. sent to the electric chair and that's game over? You want games to conform you to a law-abiding citizen? Because we've got enough of that in real life

Oh and btw goebbels was the guy in charge of the press (and propaganda) so I don't know why he belongs in your list
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Old 02-07-2014   #4
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Something to ponder on, but not intended as a definitive solution by all means.

The way I see it is that the people you really only kill are the people in the campaign. Everyone outside of a mission? That's just you goofing around (although I appreciate that Michael speaks about stuff you've done during his therapy sessions, but I'm not too sure) and doesn't tie in with the world as much.

It's also worth noting that (until V), it's unclear if each character exists on an official, national database, level.
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Old 02-07-2014   #5
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It would make for a great storyline though. If there was this small group of cops that's trying to solve a street murder and gets on your tail.
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Old 02-07-2014   #6
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So the opposite of L.A Noire.
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Old 02-16-2014   #7
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What made III and Vice City so popular was the sheer level of mayhem and destruction you could cause. I think they tried real hard to find the middle ground between those and how gritty-real IV was. I have no complaints.
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Old 04-27-2014   #8
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i had bigger problems...outlined here: http://devingdev.blogspot.co.uk/2013...iled-with.html

if linking not allowed, pasted (mods can remove link):

How Rockstar succeeded but failed with GTA V

GTA V is the biggest, most activity filled GTA to date. It succeeds on 'giving fans what they want', so then why is it the first GTA I have ever played that didn't have that 'GTA magic'?

I think it is because Rockstar gave fans what they want.


Living in the shadow of 2004 San Andreas in 2013 San Andreas

One of the things with this game is, it feels like Rockstar went to the drawing board after the mass 'dislike' (or 'louder' dislike) of IV.
This is sound in principle but lame in execution. As a company, especially one the likes of Rockstar, they really need to push their own limit. Not only in technology (which they have done in V) but in design, and craft their own game.

But instead it feels like when they went back to the drawing board, they went to the one from 2004 San Andreas release and basically re-ticked everything they've done almost a decade ago.

This is not exciting for couple of key reasons:

1) We've already seen it all.

2) We are now 9 years older and want to play something more grown up.

Let me quickly note IV addressed these two key points in the following ways:

1) They crafted a brand new next-gen engine that was more physics focused. Which eliminated the arcadey/cartoonish feel of the mechanics, leading to a more 'hardcore' experience.

2) The story was original, mature in themes it touched on and despite keeping the humour, felt close to heart and down to earth, itching that scratch of the grown up fans.

V doesn't address these two key points and fails in both. They devolved the game back to 2004. Giving us less advanced physics and more arcadey everything, and gave us a story and characters that are very forgettable and more cliché.

They ticked the boxes from the 2004 in a heartless way and when you do it just for the sake of doing it, it lacks that spark.

Rockstar, if I want to play 2004 San Andreas, I will play 2004 San Andreas. I don't want to buy a 2013 GTA to play a 2004 one.



Let's aim for every goal, hit none

Another key flaw of V I felt, outside its lacking heart and originality is the extension of that, in that it tries too much. It tries to please every fan that ever had to say anything about GTA. Each character is basically a representation of one GTA crowd. Franklin being San Andreas, Michael the Mafia, stylish white male (GTA I/II/III/VC) vibe and worst of all, Trevor, who everyone who hasn't played GTA thinks what GTA is about; a maniac for the sake of being a maniac.

This is a huge cop out by Rockstar and is very cheap. To top it off, I feel Trevor is pretty much insulting to the GTA fans to say "yep, this is what this game is now lulz" along with the simple fact, playing a maniac who is a maniac is just not fun. Well, maybe it is if you are 10 years old, but is that the crowd Rockstar wants. You wouldn't think so since Michael has to deal with family issues and go to therapy sessions.

So really the game is all over the place, never having a focus and in that failing to draw someone who is looking for something satisfying and substantial out of the game's story. These three characters do not have enough weight to draw in you into all their lives. Maybe you will connect with one, maybe. But Rockstar basically threw (3) shits to the wall, hoping one would stick and hoping they would come together in the overall story arc. Again there wasn't enough heart and attention in the overall story for that to work, not to mention it felt pretty short and rushed in some aspects to be able to pull off that scale.



Does Rockstar still love GTA?

Now, let me end this by saying, I still thought V was a fun game. But as a 25 year old life long gamer, it just didn't satisfy me the same way IV did. With IV, GTA grew up, with V, Rockstar listened to fans who were stuck in 2004. That's not bad, I enjoyed the game, but didn't love it (as I have done with every GTA so far).

I overall felt V didn't push the boundaries (outside the amazing technology), which is highly disappointing for a GTA and a Rockstar game.

Now, the fact Rockstar is actually listening to us is worrying. They are a company who are quite, tight lipped and usually have great confidence in what they are doing and executing. So why then so much crowd chatter went into V. Did they think IV was "bad" too so their confidence was shattered to the point they felt they need to turn their ear to the crowd?

Or even worse, do they no longer care enough about GTA internally so they just went through the motions to create one that just ticked off whatever the crowds were shouting for?

Or maybe it is me. Maybe I have outgrown what GTA "should be" and I should stop being a grandpa and shut the hell up. Maybe so, but I hope in some GTA soon, Rockstar decides they want to grow up again.
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Old 04-29-2014   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masteratt View Post
...and worst of all, Trevor, who everyone who hasn't played GTA thinks what GTA is about; a maniac for the sake of being a maniac.

This is a huge cop out by Rockstar and is very cheap. To top it off, I feel Trevor is pretty much insulting to the GTA fans to say "yep, this is what this game is now lulz" along with the simple fact, playing a maniac who is a maniac is just not fun. Well, maybe it is if you are 10 years old, but is that the crowd Rockstar wants. You wouldn't think so since Michael has to deal with family issues and go to therapy sessions.
You fail to realise your opinion is that of the minority, I believe most gta fans are quite fond of Trevor so I don't really think it's that much of an insult to gta fans. Added to the fact that for some people gta is indeed being a maniac for the sake of being a maniac, that's the beauty of gta.. you can play it however you damn well please. I personally very much enjoy playing with Trevor and just being an all out maniac, I think he's one of the best characters in any of the GTA games.

+ everything ZCAB said
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Old 05-18-2014   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZCAB View Post
GTA IV was arguably the most commercially successful GTA until GTA V, selling almost as many units as San Andreas in about half the time. If Rockstar was trying to appeal to the fans as blindly as you're trying to make it out, GTA V would have been more like GTA IV, not less. Can you really accuse them of not having feeling for what they're creating, when they've so obviously looked at the fans' wishes for GTA V rather than just at what's been proven to sell? They make their games for their fans, not for their own creative expression.

How exactly are GTA V's physics less advanced than its predecessor's? They're backed up by the exact same technology, which is implemented no differently besides on character movement and vehicle handling. Character movement is snappier, but no less lifelike (unless you consider it unrealistic to be able to turn around in less than 5 seconds), and driving is more loose and responsive, which makes it more comfortable and fun to many people. It's not quite a driving simulator, but the vehicle physics in GTA IV weren't exactly spot-on either.

Having a more focused and emotional story is good and all, but here's the thing: the more emphasis a video game puts on its story, the more obvious it becomes that the overall standard of writing is so much higher in older storytelling mediums like TV, film, or novels. A scene like Niko telling Roman about the fifty children against the church wall might seem profound by video game standards, but it's just another version of the traumatic tale you get from every war veteran in Hollywood movies since Jaws. GTA V, unlike its predecessor, knows this is an uphill struggle and chooses to emphasize gameplay. To reference another work of crime fiction with much more "grown up" writing than GTA IV: "You cannot lose if you do not play".

By the way: many people can actually enjoy a serious story with mature themes one moment, and some stupid immature fun another. This is absolutely no reflection of their "maturity". It's a reflection of how sometimes, a person just wants to have some brainless escapism after a day at the proverbial salt mines, instead of having to drive his virtual cousin to the bowling alley while listening to good-by-video-game-standards dialogue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerfist View Post
You fail to realise your opinion is that of the minority, I believe most gta fans are quite fond of Trevor so I don't really think it's that much of an insult to gta fans. Added to the fact that for some people gta is indeed being a maniac for the sake of being a maniac, that's the beauty of gta.. you can play it however you damn well please. I personally very much enjoy playing with Trevor and just being an all out maniac, I think he's one of the best characters in any of the GTA games.

+ everything ZCAB said
These are great and fair points, thanks for the great contribution.

Couple things: Killerfist, as I have noted at the end of my blog post, I am aware I am in the minority.

And on physics, ZCAB, did you not feel the damage physics was less satisfying in V than IV? I would spend some time just crashing cars in IV because it just felt and looked awesome. Where as in V it feels "light weight" and the damage system doesn't look as satisfying. Also how can both a sport car and a jeep climb a steep hill with the same effort. It just felt silly and too arcadey.


The rest of the thread I am with Ash. After the first hour or so of IV (which I agree was very boring and tedious), every time I would chose to replay IV over V. Yes V did play better in some aspects (gun fights are easier to handle) and technically it was just mind blowing. But if someone said re-play a PS3 gen GTA, I would pick IV easily every time. My desire to go back to V is near 0 at the moment.

Also V was literally the first GTA where I didn't at all feel 'the GTA magic'. I did up to release, heck I took a week off work (anyone who knows me will tell you I don't like taking time off work). I was thrown back to my teen years in the pre-release. Then as I played and played, it just never wow'ed me (again, outside the tech like draw distance) and I stuck with it, desperately thinking and hoping it will bring the GTA magic back at some point....And it just never did.



On another topic I would like to bring up mission design:

i was sitting in traffic the other day remembering the mission where you are staking out a building waiting for a car to come out. this car you knew the license plate to look out for so i got all excited, trying to match in my head the licence plate and the ones of the cars coming out. then when the right car comes out the game autoamtically goes "ok follow that one!". wtf. might as well have made it a cutscene.

suggestion to fix: make it after you zoom in on license plate of the cars going by to check if its the right one X = Follow , O = Let go...if you pick the wrong car, tough shit. hell i would have made it so you follow it for a few seconds then the npc goes "errr it's not the right car idiot!".

but i guess that kind of mission is 'annoying' nowadays?

that would have made it an INTERACTIVE GAME. not "ok the npc will tell you what to do you just sit and wait".

And I felt that kind of mentality went through the whole game and thus it was boring as heck to play for me. it had very little actual freedom for an open world game. worst mission design by far.

going along with that i also hated the waves of enemies that would spawn out of nowhere. huge immersion break. i'm sure other gta's did this to some extent but i never remember it being this obvious.again, bad design (to use wave of enemies that spawn out of nowhere, or to not hide it well...either way fail).

and bits that were supposed to be 'epic' just didn't hit home. did anyone feel the juggernaut minigun bit was fun? i felt like i was playing some mediocre 3rd person shooter and was pretty bored throughout it. shallow shit.

And as mentioned above in the thread, it felt like they didn't know where to go. And I feel this applied more than the story. Stuck between old gen madness and IV reality in gameplay. Like why no jet mission, no casino heist? Go nuts with it R*, give us a jet mission where we attack an army base or takeover someone's mansion in an epic planned attack.

But I feel even if there was a casino heist it would probably be "go to this hot point, press x while AI does everything for you, now watch cutscene" etc.

I remember a mission in IV where you could see someone's phone through the window and you had to call him to draw him to the window and then snipe him out. I recall the game didn't hold your hand through every step and that was badass mission design. Nothing like that in V. Everything was too automatic and 'just chase the coloured dots'.

Last edited by masteratt; 05-18-2014 at 03:41 AM..
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Old 04-28-2014   #11
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GTA IV was arguably the most commercially successful GTA until GTA V, selling almost as many units as San Andreas in about half the time. If Rockstar was trying to appeal to the fans as blindly as you're trying to make it out, GTA V would have been more like GTA IV, not less. Can you really accuse them of not having feeling for what they're creating, when they've so obviously looked at the fans' wishes for GTA V rather than just at what's been proven to sell? They make their games for their fans, not for their own creative expression.

How exactly are GTA V's physics less advanced than its predecessor's? They're backed up by the exact same technology, which is implemented no differently besides on character movement and vehicle handling. Character movement is snappier, but no less lifelike (unless you consider it unrealistic to be able to turn around in less than 5 seconds), and driving is more loose and responsive, which makes it more comfortable and fun to many people. It's not quite a driving simulator, but the vehicle physics in GTA IV weren't exactly spot-on either.

Having a more focused and emotional story is good and all, but here's the thing: the more emphasis a video game puts on its story, the more obvious it becomes that the overall standard of writing is so much higher in older storytelling mediums like TV, film, or novels. A scene like Niko telling Roman about the fifty children against the church wall might seem profound by video game standards, but it's just another version of the traumatic tale you get from every war veteran in Hollywood movies since Jaws. GTA V, unlike its predecessor, knows this is an uphill struggle and chooses to emphasize gameplay. To reference another work of crime fiction with much more "grown up" writing than GTA IV: "You cannot lose if you do not play".

By the way: many people can actually enjoy a serious story with mature themes one moment, and some stupid immature fun another. This is absolutely no reflection of their "maturity". It's a reflection of how sometimes, a person just wants to have some brainless escapism after a day at the proverbial salt mines, instead of having to drive his virtual cousin to the bowling alley while listening to good-by-video-game-standards dialogue.

Last edited by Offended_by_Everything; 04-28-2014 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 04-30-2014   #12
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I made this post on another forum about my thoughts on the story, conatins spoilers obviously:

Quote:
Gameplay wise the missions were better, but actual storywise, once Trevor gets into it, and then Michael starts getting blackmailed by the FIB, it takes a huge nose dive in both quality and, well, being coherent. You don't get a sense of satisfaction at the end, all the "main" villains feel very forced in or undercooked, this is especially true in regards to the Triads, who hell, only appear slightly in like three storyline missions yet they're supposed to be the big bad for Trevor? Stretch is another one, they could have done so much with that, but after "The Long Stretch" it just kind of went quiet, and to make things worse, if you do Option A or B, then these don't even get mentioned again! Even though Franklin is alive and well in those outcomes, what, does he just forget about Stretch and the Ballas screwing him and Lamarr over?

So yeah, GTAV has a good set up, a REAL strong start, the North Yankton bank job, Franklin and Lamarr doing their thing, etc, that stuff was great, but after the first heist, when Trevor came on board, it was still action packed, but they made the first mistake there by killing off The Lost, who felt like much better enemies against Trevor, as well as setting up stuff that went no where such as the Triad connections, and Trevor declaring war on the Aztecas, which, well, again, one mission and nothing is heard of again.

It just feels all over the place, which is why I can't say it was a great story, there's too many messed up things, which is crazy considering how much GTA IV and The Lost and Damned worked out (and yes, even The Ballad of Gay Tony to an extent though that's where they changed the story to be more "fun"), the majority of GTA IV and TLAD made sense and just fit together so perfect, there were three story arcs, the cocaine, the heroin, the diamonds. All the key points in the story revolved around those three products, you know how the cocaine came into the story and who got it for Liz (TLAD), you know where it ended up with ULP (GTA IV), you know where The Lost raided the Angels of Death and stole the Heroin (TLAD), you know where it became a big thing with Dimitri getting involved to export it and betray the mob (GTA IV), and of course The Diamonds need no explanation.

Just crazy to think that a story that detailed between three protagonist was done by Rockstar, and yet in the actual game where there IS three protagonists as the focus, it's all over the place and doesn't make sense.
tl;dr - Rockstar did the three protagonists story MUCH better in GTA IV/TLAD/TBOGT than in the actual game where it's the main focus, but gameplay wise missions in GTAV were better.
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Old 04-30-2014   #13
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And a lot of other stories did multiple protagonists better than the GTA IV trilogy. At least GTA V, being a video game, knows to let the story serve the gameplay instead of the other way around.
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Old 04-30-2014   #14
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Yeah, Gameplay is better, but at the same time, I don't really have a desire to replay GTAV as I would do the other games, mainly because the story is pretty crap after the first heist. GTA IV had a LOT of padding and took too long to get started, I still dread playing through the Vlad missions which felt like one long ass tutorial, but the story picked up pace from Bohan onwards, and even more so if you also play along with TLAD to fill that gap of not a lot of action in the first batch of the story.

Just previous GTA games did have better writing, I don't know why, but GTAV does feel all over the place and never sure of who is suppose to be the main enemy, the last GTA game to have an enemy this undercooked was LCS.

Not to mention the length, this is the shortest GTA around, only Vice City was shorter, but Vice City had only one character and nowhere near the amount of fodder missions that GTAV has (Don't agree on how "Pick up clothes", "Pick up masks", "Pick up a truck", etc, all count as single MAIN missions to the game). It's like they looked at GTA IV and thought, well that's a bit bloated, let's cut it down, ...and then cut it too short.
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Old 04-30-2014   #15
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It's just overproduced. They worked on it for far too long to get the gameplay as good as it is and the story probably had to suffer through multiple rewrites. They never settled on a single direction and it really showed. It might be a coincidence but I felt like Max Payne 3 had this exact same problem.

I always find it fun being poor in GTA when you are forced to build up to bigger and better things. In V, you just get handed mansions and hundreds of thousands virtually from the start. Combined with not having new areas to unlock, you start to feel like you're just floundering instead of working towards something. That hurts the story in later stages.

I think they absolutely nailed some of the characters though. Michael, Trevor and Lamar are some of the best GTA characters ever, in my opinion.
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