Why I'm against Israel

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

Some of you may know my position on the who Israeli-Palestinian situation, with this thread I'd like to give a few reasons why.

I'd like to start of with mentioning that anti-Israelists are often labeled as anti-Semitic by the Israeli nationalists and those who favor an Israeli state. This is far from true, atleast in my case, and I'm sure it's the same with most who have similar views as me.


an·ti-Sem·ite (ăn'tē-sĕm'īt', ăn'tī-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

Look, even the dictionary states that in order to be anti-Semitic, you have to hold prejudice towards Jews. This is a faulty discription. Semites are the people who originate from – more or less – the Arabian peninsula, or what is more commonly known as the Middle East. This means not only Jews, but Arabs and all other people from the Middle East are Semites aswell, infact, Arab is a Semitic language which is closely related to Hebrew. I – along with most pro-Palestinians – do not want Jews to wiped off the face of the earth like people such as Netanyahu, Wilders and Sharon want you to believe. I favor a state in which Jews and Arabs can live 'side by side'.

Knowing this you could say that Israel is anti-Semitic (this is a problem I have with Israel, they need to stop pointing their fingers and lay off the victim role), because Israel basically does not harbor any Arabs. They are not aloud to buy land outside the Gaza strip and Westbank area. A little knowledge of the area teaches you that power and wealth is not distibuted equaly and that the Israeli army is waging a war against the Palestinian people.

This discrimination is one of the reasons why Israel should not excist. It's an apartheid-state and I can't see how any Western country could support that, even this day in 2009, the year that White America claims that “racism is over”, 19 years after apartheid was abolished in South Africa, 64 years after the Holocaust, a 130 years after slavery was abolished.

There are more reasons why I believe a Zionist state has no right to excist, but I wanted to clear up some hypocrisy first. Perhaps I will give more reasons as this thread gets going.



P.S. perhaps what I wrote is a bit choppy, but it's late and I'm tired.

[~Schwab]

You're not an anti-Semite, are you?

[Superman]

In the next 10 years, Iran will develop a nuclear weapon and bomb Israels ass. The End.

Current progress of Iran:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/ Iran%27s_nuclear_programme_map.jpg

[Xan]

Yeah, and once that happens Iran's going to get raped for using a weapon like that. I have no doubt anybody is going to hold back then.

[behzad_sol]

I scare how my country wants to use that technology :(

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

In the next 10 years, Iran will develop a nuclear weapon and bomb Israels ass. The End.

Current progress of Iran:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/ Iran%27s_nuclear_programme_map.jpg
I doubt it because:

1. I doubt that Iran is actually gonna make weapons, ofcourse there's a possibility but I still doubt it.
2. Despite the complete dehumanization of Iranians by the US and EU, Iranians are capable of thinking like our beloved Westerners and know that one little bomb on Israel would mean total destruction of Iran.

And besides that, you have to realize that nuclear weapons in Iran would balance power a little bit and what we've all learned from the Cold War is that balance of power means.. well, no war at all. I see the US with its enormous arsenal of nuclear weapons as a much bigger threat than Iran, infact I start to see the US as (well, more or less) an enemy.
The US/EU combination is much more capable of ruining this planet and mankind along with it than the Ummah could ever be. Becuase firstly, the Ummah is not as much of a unity as the US and the EU are. Secondly, because the Ummah has no power (economic and weaponry) nor wealth compared to the US and EU, and thirdly because the US and EU are much more aggressive and prone to resort to warfare.

[JC]

In the next 10 years, Iran will develop a nuclear weapon and bomb Israels ass. The End.

Current progress of Iran:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/ Iran%27s_nuclear_programme_map.jpg

Good .

[flint.44]

I think the word Nuke is more of a threat than a weapon anymore. Countries will threat to use nukes any time they want their way, and everyone listens because of how deadly it is. I'm sure there is someone out there who is serious about using nuclear weapons, but I find it more common for them to be used as a scare tactic.
By the way, it is never good to use a nuke. It destroys too much.

[Zeshil]

Dont mind the man behind the curtain

[behzad_sol]

I should pack my suitcases and get the hell outta this country...

[devil chevelle]

[QUOTE=Pablo Escobar Jr.;



There are more reasons why I believe a Zionist state has no right to excist, but I wanted to clear up some hypocrisy first. Perhaps I will give more reasons as this thread gets going.



P.S. perhaps what I wrote is a bit choppy, but it's late and I'm tired.[/QUOTE]

wtf why the hell should muslim countrys exist there the fuckin worst everytime someone goes against them they turn it into this way out of this world religious thing and call it a crusade,they treat there women and there own civil rights like shit and dont even say thats american media.and jews have been through more then enough through history to deserve there own country, and frankly i think there getting sick of being pushed around by everyone so there now fuckin everyone up that messes with them. funny how things come back around that way huh.

o and dan 444 i hope when iran launches those nukes they put one through your house u piece of shit. how dare you fuckin wish the nuking of a country. or maybe better someone will do the world a favor and stab your ass while you sleep tonight asshole.

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

and jews have been through more then enough through history to deserve there own country, and frankly i think there getting sick of being pushed around by everyone so there now fuckin everyone up that messes with them. funny how things come back around that way huh.
Ofcourse a state for the Jews seems like a great idea when you think about what happened to them in the past, the problem is that you can't just take some land when there's already people living there. I don't see a problem with Jews living in the region, but they should live alongside the Arabs without any class differences, but then again, I believe all borders should be open to all humans just like it's open to capital goods.

Right now Israel is trying to push out all Palestinians, also those who live in the Gaza strip, this became quite apparent during the latest round of fighting (Dec 2008 - Jan/Feb 2009). Israel is NOT trying to destroy Hamas, they're bombing everything to make reasonable living impossible in Gaza. Israel bombs schools, libraries, factories (NOT related to weapons AT ALL) and farms to completely disrupt life and make it nearly impossible to rebuild.

Hamas has fired a couple of rockets at Israel and wrecked a couple of cars, Israel reacts with absurd bombings that kill over a 1000 people. Israel is sick of being pushed around? Ever thought about Palestinians are tired of being pushed around?! What the fuck makes you condone the violence of Israel and condemn that of other people? Especially knowing that Palestinian violence is not initial but reactionary to Israeli violence and occupation.

Also, about Islam and human right etc. Islam is very similar to Judaism and Christianity, the problem with any religion is that people can misinterpret it and/or use it to exploit others with it. This misinterpretation is often caused by poverty and illiteracy that comes with poverty. Poverty also results in chauvinism, which in the case of the Middle East can be translated into an extreme commitment to religion since religion and ethnicity (religion being #1) are more important than nationalism, because most of the countries and borders are drawn by Europeans. Remember that rougly 50 years ago civil rights were quite horrible in Europe and the US aswell, and women weren't treated as equals to men at all. Oh infact, remember that it were Christian Europeans that murdered millions of Jews?

[behzad_sol]

To some friends that have the wish of nuking , never wish that a country nuke another one...The main guilty people are the governments not the ones who live there and if nukes it, so there would be lots of innocent people who die

[jim_genius5]

About the term "antisemitism", it's the way the Zionist media plays the role of victims and points the finger at anyone who accuses them of something. Thank you Pablo Escobar Jr. for pointing out that most Arabs are also Semitics, and there is no possibility whatsoever that one would be anti-himself.

wtf why the hell should muslim countrys exist there the fuckin worst everytime someone goes against them they turn it into this way out of this world religious thing and call it a crusade,they treat there women and there own civil rights like shit and dont even say thats american media.and jews have been through more then enough through history to deserve there own country, and frankly i think there getting sick of being pushed around by everyone so there now fuckin everyone up that messes with them. funny how things come back around that way huh.

I don't agree with you that Jews have been "pushed around" throughout history. I agree that the holocaust has been a tragedy and that the Jews of Europe had suffered. But what do thousands of years of peaceful coexistence of Jews with Muslims and Christians in the Arab World mean to you? I am not against Jews, I am against Zionism, Israel and the apartheid against Palestinians.

Ever since the declaration of the Israeli state in 1948, Palestinians have seen nothing from Israel but aggression and racism. What you must understand is that after 1948, peaceful coexistence has become just an idea, rather than a fact. The Zionist media planted hatred in the minds of Jews and westerners against Arabs, regardless of the peaceful history Muslims and Christians had with the Jews.

Just like someone said here, it's always the government that is guilty, and not the people.

I also want to point out that Iran has never mentioned nuclear weapons. Believe it or not, this whole problem the US and EU have with Iran is because of civilian use of nuclear energy that Iran wants.

[behzad_sol]

Whatever it is, I hope my government use it in a good way instead of killing/injuring people

Edit: Also, the earlier war caused (Gaza & Israel), Iran made the people to fight with Israel while everyone wanted the peace and relationship with Israel

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

I don't agree with you that Jews have been "pushed around" throughout history. I agree that the holocaust has been a tragedy and that the Jews of Europe had suffered. But what do thousands of years of peaceful coexistence of Jews with Muslims and Christians in the Arab World mean to you? I am not against Jews, I am against Zionism, Israel and the apartheid against Palestinians.
True. Christians, Jews and Muslims have lived in relative peace (relative because there probably were some minor disputes from time to time. Though, I'm not sure about that) amongst eachother for centuries. Thatwas untill the fucking cracker-ass Ottomans and later the British came in and divided them, because dividing people results in instability and weakness, thus making colonalisation easier.

"Divide and conquer", sounds familiar devil chevelle?

[Tendercrisp]

I favor a state in which Jews and Arabs can live 'side by side'.



While that's absolutely peachy-keen. I have my doubts such a thing is even possible without massive amounts of casualties in the pursuit of the said peace. Do the ends really support the means? Both sides have been hating eachother for decades (some blindly, and some, like you, for more rational and earthly reasons).

Of course I could be very wrong.

I'd like to say I know more about the bad blood between Israel and Palestine, but I live in a country where I only get the story after it's been filtered in Israel's favor. I used to support Israel, but I've taken a neutral stance on the issue because I realized that I should hold an opinion on something I'm so poorly informed on.

That aside, I can say I disapprove of genocide, discrimination based on race, sex, sexuality, nationality, economic status, and even religion (though I am religiously nonreligious myself). What groups like Hamas are doing is wrong, and I don't have any doubt that the Israeli government is without stain.

[DiscoBombs]

I for one, as a scientist, cannot comprehend why people are fighting over those massive expanses of sand. I could understand bargaining on who gets to keep and research what artifacts they find, but that's all. Israel, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan; they are all the cradle of civilization and I guarantee that countless precious ancient artifacts lie beneath the shifting dunes. And what are they all doing? Lobbing bombs into them and bickering.

[Tendercrisp]

I for one, as a scientist, cannot comprehend why people are fighting over those massive expanses of sand. I could understand bargaining on who gets to keep and research what artifacts they find, but that's all. Israel, Palestine, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan; they are all the cradle of civilization and I guarantee that countless precious ancient artifacts lie beneath the shifting dunes. And what are they all doing? Lobbing bombs into them and bickering.

That's because they're all (or at least a good majority of them) under the false impression that the land belongs to them as promised by some omniscient being in the sky.

[DiscoBombs]

I don't understand deity worship, why not worship tangible things that are obviously influencing your life? Like the sun or the rain? Most people consider it a primitive notion but I consider it more intelligible than some being that is entirely unseen, unheard, and unfelt. Better yet just appreciate and care for nature itself, because it's what truly gave you life.

[Tendercrisp]

Maybe I'm a self centered twat, but I worship nothing, living or dead. If by "worship" you mean ritualistically waste my time doing something pointless for the appeasement of some force stronger than me of course.

If by "worship" you mean take a few seconds out of the day and stop and appreciate what I've got, then yeah, I guess I do worship some aspects of my life.

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

Sorry for interrupting the discussion and neither do I want to sound like a moderator, but would you guys please discuss the Israeli-Palestinian matter?

I will read the new posts later and perhaps reply to them, I don't have time right now. I just don't want this to steer away from the original subject.

[DiscoBombs]

Sorry for interrupting the discussion and neither do I want to sound like a moderator, but would you guys please discuss the Israeli-Palestinian matter?

I will read the new posts later and perhaps reply to them, I don't have time right now. I just don't want this to steer away from the original subject.

Very well. I can say honestly I do not know enough about the conflict to have a valid opinion on it, but from the news on it that I have read it seems to me that Israel is the "bad guy" this time around. I didn't see Palestine launching white phosphorus into residential areas (though I recall them firing a few clunky scuds at Israel) then completely denying it. I also vaguely recall Israel being the product of a coalition of several nations (probably in an effort to gain a strategic advantage in the Middle-East).

Maybe I'm a self centered twat, but I worship nothing, living or dead. If by "worship" you mean ritualistically waste my time doing something pointless for the appeasement of some force stronger than me of course.

If by "worship" you mean take a few seconds out of the day and stop and appreciate what I've got, then yeah, I guess I do worship some aspects of my life.

For those that chose the former, like I said, I think it makes more sense to devote your life to something physical. For those that choose the latter (like you and I), appreciation of life in general while still living it should more than appease any god that could potentially be there. I'm currently taking an Advanced Placement Biology class and I have to say nothing has given me more appreciation for life, being alive, and experiencing the immense diversity it provides than what I have learned in it.

[jim_genius5]

I didn't see Palestine launching white phosphorus into residential areas (though I recall them firing a few clunky scuds at Israel) then completely denying it. I also vaguely recall Israel being the product of a coalition of several nations (probably in an effort to gain a strategic advantage in the Middle-East).So do you call Hamas's toy rockets scuds? I can't imagine America trying to fight their enemies in Afghanistan by nuking the whole country, eventually. It's just not strategically appropriate. Israel's war on so-called "terrorist organization" Hamas is just another excuse to kill Palestinian civilians.

Now look at them after the war. Hamas has gained public appeal in the Arab World and is now much greater supported by the people of Gaza, and thousands around the Arab World. Israel is accused of war crimes (finally, despite their continuous slaughter of Palestinian civilians over the past sixty years) of using white phosphorus and illegal weaponry, yet still no international action is taken against them.

Regarding your argument against the existence of God, we had a thread about that a while ago where you can read my posts supporting the existence of God. Follow this link: http://www.gtagaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1 06800&page=2

[DiscoBombs]

I love how when I say I don't believe in god people immediately think I'm an atheist. Did I ever say this? No. I simply do not believe in the bloodthirsty, hypocritical gods that everyone seems to devote their lives to. My views on god are rather Deist, that is: I believe in a god (and subsequently an afterlife), but I simply believe that he set down the ground rules of the universe (chemistry, physics, etc) and set the ball rolling and hasn't interfered since. Woah holy shit what a close-minded idea.

Let me make this exceedingly clear: I do not support Israel killing innocent Palestinians. I do not support the forcing of beliefs upon others. I do not support a state which has been given to a group of people whining about how their God gave them some land and some meanies took it away. But at the same time I cannot support either side as conflict over something as obscure as religion is utterly pointless. I also frankly don't really give a shit who is the good or bad guy in it, what I care about is that innocent people are dieing and by any moral standard that's wrong. How can a someone like me care about life? I'm obviously a soul-less atheist with no concept of morals. As a scientist I can tell you that life is something precious, considering it was in all likelihood an accident, and this life could quite possibly be the only one we get. With my Deist beliefs stated above I can tell you why I hold those beliefs: I'm afraid of dieing, I want so desperately for there to be something after this where I can talk to all my friends and family and everybody from history.

[jim_genius5]

My views on god are rather Deist, that is: I believe in a god (and subsequently an afterlife), but I simply believe that he set down the ground rules of the universe (chemistry, physics, etc) and set the ball rolling and hasn't interfered since. Woah holy shit what a close-minded idea.I partially agree with you as God has created and set the rules for this universe. The vastness of the universe just shows how minor the roles we play in this world are. The sheer number of possibilities and the very, very, minuscule probability that we eventually exist and sit in front of computers and talk right now is just enough to prove that God exists and created the universe in ultimate precision.

I for one, as a scientist, cannot comprehend why people are fighting over those massive expanses of sand.Not trying to make it any longer off-topic, I want to comment on something you said previously. This conflict is not over some massive expanses of sand. The Zionist media has misled the world into believing that this land is "the promised land" and that any people living on it for thousands of years could just screw themselves.

The Palestinians are fighting for their freedom and land. I don't think you would take it lightly if someone steals your house and kills your family. Scientists are humans too, I believe. It is human instinct to have that bond with the land you were brought to this world upon, and live to your last breath protecting it.

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

Religion is only a very small factor in this conflict. This is not a Muslim vs. Jewish thing as many believe, it's a Jewish (notably Ashkenazi) vs. Arab conflict. The Arabian population of the Palestinian territory includes Muslims, Christians, and yes, even Jews. Although I am not sure how Hamas thinks about Arab Jews and how Israel thinks about Arab Jews, I do know many of those Arab Jews are against an Israeli - and 100% Jewish - state. Many of them see themselves as Arabs before Jews and thus experience the Israeli occupation as one against their people.

The Palestinian liberation groups as Fatah and Hamas are largely non-religious, btw. Also, I do not really support Hamas or Fatah or any of those groups, because they create disunity amongst an oppressed group of people, the last thing they need is clashing with themselves and we all know Hamas and Fatah are bitter rivals. Buuuuut as much as I don't condone the majority of their actions, I do not see them as terrorist groups, because their actions are reactionary.

[Superman]

I have to disagree. This war is all about religion. These two countries were formed due to different beliefs. And they shall continue to fight until one side wins over, or America comes in there and fucks everyone up. Palestinian terrorists are all Muslims but are not really after any holy war, they are after capturing the Israeli land. Though, every time they do blow a train or bus, they do yell out the Islamic prayer.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
bismi-llāhi ar-raḥmāni ar-raḥīmi
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

The winner of this war surely will be the Muslims aka Palestinians because almost of the surrounding countries are Muslim and obviously will help Palestinian in a way of "fighting the infidels." The only supporter of Israel could become America. and if they step in, the outcome could also be bad. I do not want Palestinians and Israelis to sign some kind of "peace treaty" because that would just arouse the public to do damage as of strikes. The answer is always war. And will always be war. The winner will take home the prize, and the losers will be enslaved. America does the same thing but they do it in a sneaky way. Though I do live in America, I am not afraid to say this, America is actually the one who starts the war between countries just so they can make those two or more countries kill each other, and when this happens, America can go over there to take the powerless land.

[rappo]

If you think that war is always the answer, then I pity you to no end. What's wrong with arousing publicity? If a specific group of people are being oppressed then it's their right, and in my opinion duty, to speak out about it and get as much attention as possible. This happens all over the world (look up: Kosovo, Chechnya, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh).

[Kodo]

Amen Mr. Rappo.

War is never just because war always restricts liberty. Unless the goal of war is to acquire resources, make profits at the expense of human life, oppress people, exterminate a population, or get revenge, then war will never be an effective solution to a problem. As long as there are stereotypes about people and the oppression of others, there will be violence, terrorist attacks, and wars. Education, communication, tolerance, and patience are the only means for obtaining peace, enlightenment, and survival.

[Llama]

Amen Mr. Rappo.

War is never just because war always restricts liberty. Unless the goal of war is to acquire resources, make profits at the expense of human life, oppress people, exterminate a population, or get revenge, then war will never be an effective solution to a problem. As long as there are stereotypes about people and the oppression of others, there will be violence, terrorist attacks, and wars. Education, communication, tolerance, and patience are the only means for obtaining peace, enlightenment, and survival.
I partially disagree. War is sometimes just. I agree that most wars in history have been pointless (war of 1812, ww1, mexican-american, spanish-american, 100 years war, etc etc.) however, some wars had to happen and were inevitable. the most obvious example of course would be world war ii. i don't think you'll find a person who doesn't believe our involvement in that war was just. we can debate for years whether we entered too late/too soon and under the right or wrong circumstances, but in the end it was a war we needed to fight. another good example is the US civil war, which led to the ending of slavery (ie: it created rights, and did not restrict.) anywho, class is over so i have to shut my laptop down. i'll finish this post if i remember to.

[Kodo]

i'm about to stray far away from israel, but it's all related so please permit me to make a point.

ww2 was not fought to save anyone from the atrocities and acts of oppression committed against them - it was to stop an empire threatening to be more powerful than ours (we even allied with russia only to go war with them years later)

the civil war was not fought to end slavery. slavery played a large part, but only because slavery was tied into the geography and economy of the nation. the north didn't want the westward expansion to be filled with slave states, and the south wanted to preserve their workforce - a competition over labor. the civil war was fought to preserve the union and stop the south from seceding. there was evil on both sides and i doubt anyone really cared about the rights of slaves.

both wars that you mentioned were absolute atrocities. during the civil war people used to have picnics at battlefields and watch people kill each other as if it was entertainment. this and ww2 were very bloody wars with hundreds of thousands of people caught up in them and killed. does the ends justify the means? i don't how you can justify the death of so many people.

the point i'm making is that these wars were not fought over human rights.

What’s the difference between Bush and Saddam?
Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Osama Bin Laden
Or Idi Amin
…Fidel Castro
It seems to me they on the same team
Their hate can only lead to innocent blood streams
If it’s so important
For US to fight for mankind
WHY I don’t see none of they kinfolk
Out there on the front line.

[Glanerd]

I was always taught that the civil war was fought over states rights.

[Kodo]

I was always taught that the civil war was fought over states rights.

states rights to have _____ (fill in the blank)

[behzad_sol]

The Civil War isn't something that just sprung up overnight. The first issue that started the crisis over state's rights was the issue of nullification. The South felt that individual states should have the power to nullify federal laws that they disagreed with. The nullification crisis occured during the presidency of Andrew Jackson and came to ahead over the Tariff of 1828. The South lost the battle over nullification, and began to feel that their interests were not being represented by the government.

The abolitionist movement became increasingly important and influential in the North during the 1830s and 1840s, which increased the South's feeling of alienation. They began to feel that the government would not leave them alone and let them tend to their own lives, but was planning on interfering and running everything. Less government was very important back then, and too much government interference in day to day activities was not at all desired.

Immediately were following were a number of crises concerning new states being admitted into the own, upsetting the delicate balance between slave and non slave states.

[jim_genius5]

War is never just because war always restricts liberty. Unless the goal of war is to acquire resources, make profits at the expense of human life, oppress people, exterminate a population, or get revenge, then war will never be an effective solution to a problem.

I disagree. The goal of war is only to steal resources, terrorize the natives in pursuit of self interests, etc. You have to know the difference between going to war and retaliation. You only go to war for the above reasons - oppressing people in pursuit of profits and self interest. You retaliate because you are deprived of your very own right to live.

This is exactly the same case in the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Palestinians have been fighting for their very own right to breathe. They retaliate against Israeli aggression, and the whole world stands against them. The Zionists go to war in Gaza and break international laws by using deadly weaponry, just because Hamas threw a couple of toy rockets that killed a couple of Israelis. Despite this, they still get greater support and are not considered war criminals.

Zionism is no different from Nazism, both oppress people believing that they are better. Zionists think they're "God's chosen people", isn't that a cause for terror?

[Kodo]

Maybe there has got to be a better way. If people could detach themselves from their entrenched identities in order to communicate to others their real issues, maybe things would turn out more positively. I know people feel that violence is the only option when they are backed into a corner, but it's just so fucked up. There's no debating right or wrong for it, it's a fact of life that violence just breeds more violence. It doesn't seem like people realize that violence is but one choice out of many other methods of solving a problem. There are different ways of looking at a situation.

The top three profit generating investments in the world are in arms manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, and alcohol. The first one kills people, the second one sends them on their way to dying, and the third one makes them forget about life. That says a lot about the state of humanity. Why do we hate life and others so badly? The problem is not with life or with others, the problem is within ourselves, and things will not change until we choose to change.

[m52nickerson]

Maybe there has got to be a better way. If people could detach themselves from their entrenched identities in order to communicate to others their real issues, maybe things would turn out more positively. I know people feel that violence is the only option when they are backed into a corner, but it's just so fucked up. There's no debating right or wrong for it, it's a fact of life that violence just breeds more violence. It doesn't seem like people realize that violence is but one choice out of many other methods of solving a problem. There are different ways of looking at a situation.

The top three profit generating investments in the world are in arms manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, and alcohol. The first one kills people, the second one sends them on their way to dying, and the third one makes them forget about life. That says a lot about the state of humanity. Why do we hate life and others so badly? The problem is not with life or with others, the problem is within ourselves, and things will not change until we choose to change.

That would be a better way of doing things, the problem is their beliefs are holding them back. Their religious belief to be exact. Each believe that theirs is the true religion, of the true god. While they cling to archaic beliefs the seemingly unforgivable sins against them from the other side continue to add up. It no longer matters who fired the first shot, all that they care about is who will fire the last. All becasue of the belief in god. Perhaps Epicurus stated it best:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

So god remands silent while religions squabble like children seeking the approval of a uninterested parent. Uninterested, or perhaps more likely not there at all.

[Kodo]

So god remands silent while religions squabble like children seeking the approval of a uninterested parent. Uninterested, or perhaps more likely not there at all.

yes. well said. a bomb is just a bomb, it just depends on what you want to do with it. if you are angry, it can cause a lot of destruction. if you are happy, it's completely useless. wanting to kill people is stupid enough, but doing it in the name of imagination is even worse.

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

That would be a better way of doing things, the problem is their beliefs are holding them back. Their religious belief to be exact. Each believe that theirs is the true religion, of the true god. While they cling to archaic beliefs the seemingly unforgivable sins against them from the other side continue to add up. It no longer matters who fired the first shot, all that they care about is who will fire the last. All becasue of the belief in god. Perhaps Epicurus stated it best:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

So god remands silent while religions squabble like children seeking the approval of a uninterested parent. Uninterested, or perhaps more likely not there at all.
Dude, once again, this has so little to do with religion. Religion is only used as a cover, in reality Palestine vs. Israel is just another skincolor vs. other skincolor situation. The Israeli citizens being the European(-ish, atleast the ruling class is more Caucasoid) (plus their European support, ofcourse) and the Arabs being.. well, the Arabs.

Also, I normally do not condone violence but I do believe it should be used as a last resort. I believe revolution is the only way out of this fucked up situation we're in today and have been in for the last couple of centuries, and since this does not seem to work through diplomatic ways I see a violent revolution as the only possible way people might actually listen and wake the fuck up.. oh and philosophy has no place in this all.

[m52nickerson]

Dude, once again, this has so little to do with religion. Religion is only used as a cover, in reality Palestine vs. Israel is just another skincolor vs. other skincolor situation. The Israeli citizens being the European(-ish, atleast the ruling class is more Caucasoid) (plus their European support, ofcourse) and the Arabs being.. well, the Arabs.

Also, I normally do not condone violence but I do believe it should be used as a last resort. I believe revolution is the only way out of this fucked up situation we're in today and have been in for the last couple of centuries, and since this does not seem to work through diplomatic ways I see a violent revolution as the only possible way people might actually listen and wake the fuck up.. oh and philosophy has no place in this all.

You say that religion has nothing to do with it, but then wounder why diplomacy has not worked. To say that religion is not the driving force that prevents peace is showing ignorance of the situation. Palestinian and Arab leaders do not make statement about wanting the destruction of Israel just because of there skin color. Israel leaders do not launch counter offenses becasue Palestinians look different. People do not strap bombs to themselves and launch suicide attacks because of cultural differences. They do it becasue they believe their god will reward them.

......and there is always something to learn from philosophy.

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

You say that religion has nothing to do with it, but then wounder why diplomacy has not worked.
What I said about diplomacy in regard to revolution was a reply to Kodo's take on violence/war. Was unrelated to the Israel topic.

To say that religion is not the driving force that prevents peace is showing ignorance of the situation. Palestinian and Arab leaders do not make statement about wanting the destruction of Israel just because of there skin color. Israel leaders do not launch counter offenses becasue Palestinians look different. People do not strap bombs to themselves and launch suicide attacks because of cultural differences. They do it becasue they believe their god will reward them.

......and there is always something to learn from philosophy.
Religion is not the driving force in this issue, atleast not the present day. Yes it was a factor of what initially started it all; a Zionist state: a state for Jewish people and Jewish people only, granted by them by god. The people they pushed out and are still being pushed out by the Zionist aggressor are made up of various religions: muslims, jews and christians. Dude, even Fatah (probably labeled as an Islamic terrorist group in America) is non-religious, so was the PLO, so is the PFLP (PFLP was founded by a christian). Hamas is religious but they only won the elections because they perfectly played in to the frustration of the Palestinian people with their propaganda.

I said skincolor vs. skincolor but I meant race vs. race and the problem is that Israelis are seen as whites.. Europeans, which is why the EU and the US favor them - race is much more a political term than it is a biological term - and because Israel is treated as some sort of European enclave they get financial, political and military support. Funny thing is that, biologically Jews are related to the other ethnic groups that inhabit or have once inhabited the Arabian peninsula/Near East and even North Africa - even Ashkenazi Jews who usually show European features - which means they're not white at all. But meh, distinguishing by race stems back to the days of mass pillage hunts aka colonialism, so it's not a surprise it's flawed.

I just wish Israel would lay off the US life support and realize that a more equal distribution of power is best for everyone affected by this shit. :\

[m52nickerson]

So religion only affected the situation in the past you claim. When was that turning point? You also state that the topic of failed diplomacy was not related to the topic of Israel, but how can it not be? So far diplomacy in that region has given only short cease fires and no long term solutions. Do you really think that the hatred needed to continue fighting for so long is based on were Israels support comes from? Or enough to have suicide attacks? If anything squabbles over returning to land the have individuals have not lived on for 60 year or so is a used as a cover as you put it to hide the real motivation.

[Kodo]

the fighting is because people don't see others as themselves. as long as they are separated by race, color, creed, whatever they'll kill each other. this is the way we have always done things, and look at the state of humanity now. violence breeds more violence. how many moments in history were marked by the blood of millions? how many moments marked by love and compassion? the only way out is a recognition of ourselves as the problem and it takes a certain consciousness to have that perception.

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

Do you really think that the hatred needed to continue fighting for so long is based on were Israels support comes from?
No, but without the support from the EU and the US, Israel would not have lasted as long. I doubt Israel could even ever exist without the support they get.

the fighting is because people don't see others as themselves. as long as they are separated by race, color, creed, whatever they'll kill each other. this is the way we have always done things, and look at the state of humanity now. violence breeds more violence. how many moments in history were marked by the blood of millions? how many moments marked by love and compassion? the only way out is a recognition of ourselves as the problem and it takes a certain consciousness to have that perception.
I understand what you're saying but violence has had it's positive effect, perhaps not that often, but still. The liberation of Maghrebi countries are an example of that. Sacrafices have to be made sometimes, but if it has a positive result for the general population I really don't see a problem with it.

[Kodo]

what about a TRULY positive effect, not a temporary "peace" that leads to further bloodshed and suffering?

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

Well, if I may take Algeria as an example: Back in the late 50s when Algeria was under French rule, a movement started among young Algerian men and women which started to oppose itself from the French "pied-noirs" and government, trying to reach more self-determination. But since France was like fuck yall niggaz, the Algerians decided that through violent acts, the French might give in. It went on to become a full on war - which lasted for something like 6 years - but resulted in the independence of Algeria.

Sure it was a bloody war, sure I regret casualties, but if that's what it takes.. I could say that it was 'worth it' (sounds a bit crude to say it's worth it, but I don't know any other way to express what I mean).

[m52nickerson]

No, but without the support from the EU and the US, Israel would not have lasted as long. I doubt Israel could even ever exist without the support they get.

How do you figure that? Israel get support mainly for problems with the Palestinian state. With out this outside support Israel would most likely push all or most of the Palestinians out in a very violent way. Remember during the first Gulf War the US supplied Israel missile defense system in agreement they would stay out of the war. Why, Israel does not pull it's punches.

[EMT]

I think the word Nuke is more of a threat than a weapon anymore. Countries will threat to use nukes any time they want their way, and everyone listens because of how deadly it is. I'm sure there is someone out there who is serious about using nuclear weapons, but I find it more common for them to be used as a scare tactic.
By the way, it is never good to use a nuke. It destroys too much.

I couldn't agree more dude. To me... a nuke should not be used in war. If your going to use a nuke, use it on a comet or something that threatens the planet! Tactical nukes? Yes... Depending on the situation. Tactical nukes are supposedly used to take out small quantities (which are really large) Because we are talking about a nuclear fucking weapon here... but in all honesty, these "nukes" are more of a way for countries like USA... China... All the super powers, to say Fuck off! We have nuclear weapons! Then the smaller countries, like Iraq can't even make a missile launch successful. I see on the news I forgot which country it was but they tested a missile and it went ape shit in mid air and hit a mountain. I mean common! :facepalm: I feel bad for those dudes, all they got are AK-47's and RPG's, and I guess training in explosives/demolition, yet they can't even make a missile that can even reach our country, let alone a country that's connected to them! Nukes are threats. :D Well said. One day I am sure something will happen though... Who knows.

[Ultraussie]

Why doesnt Isreal blow the Arab's fucking head off with these things:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/uzi-micro2.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/assault/tavor_04.jpg
Isreali made Guns!
You already had to put up Hitler's bullshit Isreal, so why the fuck do you needa stand some fucking lame Relgious war again? BLOW THEIR HEADS OFF SHITHEADS!!!!!!!!!!

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

^post reported. Thank you mr. Australian. Thank you once again.

[The Commander]

^post reported. Thank you mr. Australian. Thank you once again.

I think he has been banned from most of the other GTA forums for posting stupid things and talking like that. :eek:

[rappo]

Okay can we please either get back to topic or stop posting here? When you report someones post, that's all you need to do - we take care of it. Posting unrelated replies doesn't help. Ze end.

[Xan]

Why doesnt Isreal blow the Arab's fucking head off with these things:
[shit removed]
Isreali made Guns!
You already had to put up Hitler's bullshit Isreal, so why the fuck do you needa stand some fucking lame Relgious war again? BLOW THEIR HEADS OFF SHITHEADS!!!!!!!!!!

I'd like to see you fend out a IED or a Chinese made long range missile.

You might have the muscles and the firepower. But without a good tactical plan and diplomacy your going to have massive casualties for no damn reason at all.

[Jakenz]

You only gotta watch the few Israel specials on future weapons, to realize Israel is a very powerful nation. I also believe they have nukes too.

They are a civilized country surrounded by shit, They are not the aggressors. And they arnt fighting the palastine people, only the terrorists Amundsen them (see vietnam war)

[Known Z]

Being half-Palestinian and having studied the conflict fairly extensively, I thought I'd (re- ;)) register to shed some light on the situation in the Middle East.

In addition to reading about it and researching it myself, I've gone through the various aspects of these conflicts during politics and human rights class, as well as studies of religion at school. I've also been at "NUPI", the Norwegian Foreign Policy Institute, and spoken with a Middle East expert. I've also visited the UN and NATO headquarters in Brussels and heard their side of it, not to mention visiting my family in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon to see how they experienced the effects of this whole conflict. Last time, I was there amidst massive demonstrations as the Israel-Gaza war broke out.

So, time for a history lesson. http://www.facepunch.com/fp/emoot/eng101.gif

What you need to realise is that the Middle East, the Arab and the Muslim world and their relations to the West form a very complicated picture. To understand why and how people act like they do, you need to know the background and history of the region, and how outside factors have interfered.

The Levant (the region of which Israel and the Palestinian territories are a part) has always been extremely attractive. It's an important place for all Abrahamic religions and it's very lush and good for agriculture (having the nickname "The Fertile Crescent"). A couple of millennia ago, the Jews that lived there were conquered and thrown out by the Romans and are sent on their long, stateless journey spread out in Europe. For various religious reasons, European Christians couldn't have certain jobs in banking, business, etc., which became positions for Jews. Perhaps because of jealousy, this spread an anti-Jewish sentiment among European Christians, and the result was constant harassment, pogroms and banishments from entire countries for the next millennium and a half.

Meanwhile, Islam was formed and spread to what was now Palestine. A few Jews returned and lived peacefully under Muslim rule as long as they paid the jizyah, which was a small additional tax for non-Muslims (equivalent to the zakat - the charity tax - which is obligatory for Muslims).

Later, the Ottoman Turks conquered large parts of the Arabian and North-African world, including Palestine. By the 19th century, they were stealing land from Palestinians (remember, lush and good for agriculture means it was sought after), and selling it to the highest bidders. This was usually European Jews in banking and business. By the late 19th century, the World Zionist Organisation had been formed, urging Jews to return to their ancient homeland.

In WWI, the Ottoman Empire hadn't properly gone through industrialisation and was labelled "the Sick Man of Europe". It fell easily, and large parts of the Middle East were conquered by the British and the French. Palestine fell under British rule. By now, some Jews in Palestine and a few in Europe had formed Zionist militia groups (or terrorist groups, in other words) such as Irgun, and started getting more influential after they bombed hotels in Jerusalem, etc. Britain gradually opened for large Jewish immigration to Palestine, which led to the Arab Revolt in the 30s.

Before moving on, it's important to mention that while all this was happening, the West was getting less and less popular in the Muslim world. They were considered fierce, divisive and imperialistic (well, they were). In the 20s, Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood, a partly nationalistic, partly religious movement and fully political movement for Muslims. This organisation would become very important later.

During WWII, we all know what happened. Almost half of the world's Jews were slaughtered, and it became apparent that they needed their own homeland. After much bickering by the winners of the war and more bombings by Zionist militia groups, Britain just said, "Fuck it", and left it to the UN to decide. As a result, Britain gave up its Palestinian colony to the UN which divided it, ~45% for the 30% Jews in the region, and ~55% for the 70% Arabs. Israel was heavily backed by Western powers, especially the US.

Immediately, the Arabs protested, and a war broke out, after which Israel conquered more of the Palestinian areas. After this, there were tensions and clashes between Israel versus Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians. Even some of the Arab countries went against each other, when the West Bank was conquered by Jordan and the Gaza Strip by Egypt.

In the Palestinian areas, this was primarily thought of as a strictly nationalistic war about strips of land. Palestinian resistance movements were formed such as Fatah and PLO to attempt to build up their country and protest against Israel. By the 80s, however, Fatah had become so corrupt that Hamas, an offspring of the Muslim Brotherhood, was formed as a very religious alternative. The reason they have become so popular among Gazans is that they have built up the country and invested in education and a healthcare system. They're also much less corrupted, but much more aggressive than Fatah.

While all this jazz was going on, the West had gotten interest in the Middle East when rich natural resources were discovered. Orchestrating coups and generally meddling with internal affairs in Middle Eastern countries spread a strongly anti-Western sentiment among Muslims, and the Muslim Brotherhood became very influential, to the point of forming governments in several countries (including, for instance, Egypt).

The development in Israel and Palestine for the last ten years has, in my view, been really bad. A constant stream of attacks from Palestinians and a disgustingly disproportionate response from Israel will not help things at all. Additionally, Israel is building settlements in the West Bank, has sealed the entire Gaza Strip by closing the borders and controlling the airspace. Almost no aid is allowed in and Gazans live a truly subsistence life, with 1.5 million people in an area smaller than a medium-sized town. The situation isn't helped much by Israel's latest election, where everything shifted towards far-right. In fact, since the election, Israel has given the thumbs up for starting construction of settlements to accomodate 200,000 more settlers.

In my eyes - and hell, my own personal experience - Palestinians are being screwed over majorly in this conflict. It's ridiculous for Israelis to consider themselves victims when they have killed more than ten times as many Palestinians than vice versa, and have additionally conquered almost twice as much land as they were originally dealt.

I'll just end this with a picture I took during a demonstration in that Palestinian refugee camp:

http://i28.tinypic.com/25k4wg5.jpg

[zeeshan810]

They are killing innocent people! I mean comon the kid above in a picture is not going to harm Israel Army.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9gn6KLa5xtY/SXsTipMR9oI/ AAAAAAAADhI/9kr9ysTI4F8/s400/IsraelsVictimsInPales tine2.jpg

[Pablo Escobar Jr.]

Being half-Palestinian and having studied the conflict fairly extensively, I thought I'd (re- ;)) register to shed some light on the situation in the Middle East.

In addition to reading about it and researching it myself, I've gone through the various aspects of these conflicts during politics and human rights class, as well as studies of religion at school. I've also been at "NUPI", the Norwegian Foreign Policy Institute, and spoken with a Middle East expert. I've also visited the UN and NATO headquarters in Brussels and heard their side of it, not to mention visiting my family in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon to see how they experienced the effects of this whole conflict. Last time, I was there amidst massive demonstrations as the Israel-Gaza war broke out.

So, time for a history lesson. http://www.facepunch.com/fp/emoot/eng101.gif

What you need to realise is that the Middle East, the Arab and the Muslim world and their relations to the West form a very complicated picture. To understand why and how people act like they do, you need to know the background and history of the region, and how outside factors have interfered.

The Levant (the region of which Israel and the Palestinian territories are a part) has always been extremely attractive. It's an important place for all Abrahamic religions and it's very lush and good for agriculture (having the nickname "The Fertile Crescent"). A couple of millennia ago, the Jews that lived there were conquered and thrown out by the Romans and are sent on their long, stateless journey spread out in Europe. For various religious reasons, European Christians couldn't have certain jobs in banking, business, etc., which became positions for Jews. Perhaps because of jealousy, this spread an anti-Jewish sentiment among European Christians, and the result was constant harassment, pogroms and banishments from entire countries for the next millennium and a half.

Meanwhile, Islam was formed and spread to what was now Palestine. A few Jews returned and lived peacefully under Muslim rule as long as they paid the jizyah, which was a small additional tax for non-Muslims (equivalent to the zakat - the charity tax - which is obligatory for Muslims).

Later, the Ottoman Turks conquered large parts of the Arabian and North-African world, including Palestine. By the 19th century, they were stealing land from Palestinians (remember, lush and good for agriculture means it was sought after), and selling it to the highest bidders. This was usually European Jews in banking and business. By the late 19th century, the World Zionist Organisation had been formed, urging Jews to return to their ancient homeland.

In WWI, the Ottoman Empire hadn't properly gone through industrialisation and was labelled "the Sick Man of Europe". It fell easily, and large parts of the Middle East were conquered by the British and the French. Palestine fell under British rule. By now, some Jews in Palestine and a few in Europe had formed Zionist militia groups (or terrorist groups, in other words) such as Irgun, and started getting more influential after they bombed hotels in Jerusalem, etc. Britain gradually opened for large Jewish immigration to Palestine, which led to the Arab Revolt in the 30s.

Before moving on, it's important to mention that while all this was happening, the West was getting less and less popular in the Muslim world. They were considered fierce, divisive and imperialistic (well, they were). In the 20s, Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood, a partly nationalistic, partly religious movement and fully political movement for Muslims. This organisation would become very important later.

During WWII, we all know what happened. Almost half of the world's Jews were slaughtered, and it became apparent that they needed their own homeland. After much bickering by the winners of the war and more bombings by Zionist militia groups, Britain just said, "Fuck it", and left it to the UN to decide. As a result, Britain gave up its Palestinian colony to the UN which divided it, ~45% for the 30% Jews in the region, and ~55% for the 70% Arabs. Israel was heavily backed by Western powers, especially the US.

Immediately, the Arabs protested, and a war broke out, after which Israel conquered more of the Palestinian areas. After this, there were tensions and clashes between Israel versus Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese and Egyptians. Even some of the Arab countries went against each other, when the West Bank was conquered by Jordan and the Gaza Strip by Egypt.

In the Palestinian areas, this was primarily thought of as a strictly nationalistic war about strips of land. Palestinian resistance movements were formed such as Fatah and PLO to attempt to build up their country and protest against Israel. By the 80s, however, Fatah had become so corrupt that Hamas, an offspring of the Muslim Brotherhood, was formed as a very religious alternative. The reason they have become so popular among Gazans is that they have built up the country and invested in education and a healthcare system. They're also much less corrupted, but much more aggressive than Fatah.

While all this jazz was going on, the West had gotten interest in the Middle East when rich natural resources were discovered. Orchestrating coups and generally meddling with internal affairs in Middle Eastern countries spread a strongly anti-Western sentiment among Muslims, and the Muslim Brotherhood became very influential, to the point of forming governments in several countries (including, for instance, Egypt).

The development in Israel and Palestine for the last ten years has, in my view, been really bad. A constant stream of attacks from Palestinians and a disgustingly disproportionate response from Israel will not help things at all. Additionally, Israel is building settlements in the West Bank, has sealed the entire Gaza Strip by closing the borders and controlling the airspace. Almost no aid is allowed in and Gazans live a truly subsistence life, with 1.5 million people in an area smaller than a medium-sized town. The situation isn't helped much by Israel's latest election, where everything shifted towards far-right. In fact, since the election, Israel has given the thumbs up for starting construction of settlements to accomodate 200,000 more settlers.

In my eyes - and hell, my own personal experience - Palestinians are being screwed over majorly in this conflict. It's ridiculous for Israelis to consider themselves victims when they have killed more than ten times as many Palestinians than vice versa, and have additionally conquered almost twice as much land as they were originally dealt.

I'll just end this with a picture I took during a demonstration in that Palestinian refugee camp:

*picture*
Post of the year? Seriously, thank you for this, your post blew me away.

[UnKnown X]

Post of the year? Seriously, thank you for this, your post blew me away.
Why thank you, I'm flattered. <3